Martins and bees

[nbaum]

I have been trying to attract Martins since 2004 here in Northern Illinois with no success. Just some visitors infrequently. This year I am starting two honeybee hives about 75 yards from my martin housing. I wonder if the bees will at least attract the martins to my site. I understand that the bees are not a steady diet item for the martins. Wouldn't it be great if the way to start a martin colony was to get a couple beehives!

[Emil Pampell-Tx]

I sure wish that it would work for you, and it may be worth a try.

Some things that I can think of:
1)since its a small part of their diet, the bees may not help much.
2)one of the main reasons for not attracting martins is that the housing is too close to trees. I have neighbors that put up martin housing but they cannot attract martins, they have the houses too close to the trees, and we have too many hawks and owls
3)often, there are no available martins that are looking for new housing. The martins always go back to their old housing if they were successful there. In some parts of the country, there are few martins available for expansion. Here in the South, there are abundant martins
4)the sparrows and starlings chase away any martins that are interested in finding a new home. Also, hawks and owls are a problem. It would be difficult to attract martins when too many predators are in the vicinity. Its best to use deep cavities (at least 12in), use owl guards, use SREH, and trap and shoot all the starlings and sparrows.

However, I wish you the best of luck, and maybe you will be able to attract some this year. If you have some of the conditions listed above, you may try to improve such problems. You certainly have been trying long enough, and if the conditions at your place are right, then you should be able to attract some if you have occasional visitors

Its about 2 to 3 weeks before we can expect to have martins are our colony, but already, the sparrows, starlings, hawks, and owls are really active around here. I trapeed 7 starlings, 2 sparrows, and shot a 3rd sparrow. We usually are not bothered much here with these pests. I am currently hanging gourds, and modifying some of them, extending the tunnels. I want the longer tunnels to help protect the martins from the owls which are so abundant here.

[nbaum]

Thanks for the advise. I have removed trees. Played dawn song. Added gourds, used decoys. Etc. Etc. I'am adding a predator guard on my T-14 this year because I did saw a squirrel in the housing late last year. There have been hawks around in the past. Perhaps owl guards are in order.
I'am not getting the bees for the martins but I was hoping all the bug movement might attract their attention.

[jldoll]

Nbaum
I am still a new martin landlord with two sucessful pair in 2009 and seven successful pair in 2010 with 33 fledgelings. I also am a bee keeper.
I have never noticed the martins feeding on any bees. And I have looked for them to do this. My hives are about 50 yards from the martins.
I also have humming bird feeders near my martins. And the humming birds often perch on the same rods as the martins.
I suggest two other forums.
beesource beekeeping
BeeMaster's International
You can learn a lot there. And the people are just as wonderful and helpful as they are on the purple martin forum.
Good luck with your martins and your bees.
Jerry

[rehab]

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[nbaum]

I do have 4 Troyer gourds hanging from the bottom of my T-14. Do you think a gourd rack would make a difference? Maybe it can't hurt to remove the t-14 this year and mount a simple gourd rack. The t-14 hasn't shown me anything so far!

[rehab]

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[flyin-lowe]

I don't think the T14 is hurting anything. The main key is getting the first pair or two to stay. I tried for about 5 years with an S&K house, T14, Big Bo's, and Troyer Horizontals. The fourth year I had an SY male claim a cavity and stay all summer. The next year he returned as an ASY and attracted 5 other pair. I had 5 pair in the T14 and 1 pair only chose the gourds. The reason I bring that up is that there are no other T14 houses that I have seen close to me. So granted they might prefer housing similar to what they fledged from but I think a suitable site is more important then familiar housing. Others might have opinions on this topic.
My site is very open and I have a 1000 acre lake across the street. I also have colonies near by and it still took five years to get a pair to stay. Now I have to wait another few months to see how many return and how many more pairs I get.
How far is your house from trees, buildings, and from your house. I am assuming that the terrain in northern IL is similar to northern IN. You cant go more then a couple of miles without coming across a body of water. There are ponds, lakes, and rivers everywhere.

[Debba]

Please read article from fall 2010 Purple Martin Update. James D. Ray in TX lost 16 nestlings when one of his hives swarmed his martin house. This article could give you some great information

[Bill Pec]

I too am a bee keeper and a purple martin landlord and I don't think the addition of a bee hive will help you attract martins. What the addition of a bee hive will do is add additional pleasures to your wonderful life. Sounds like you are doing a lot of things correctly to attract martins. I hope this is the year you become a PM landlord.
Bill

[Robbo]

Debba,
Good call!, That article scared the BEEJEEVS OUT OF me , I could only amagine a Wasp attack to be worse. Yes please read the Update.
Rob.

[Winger]

Attached is a picture of a gourd covered in honey bees. This was last year just days after the martins had left. Fortunately for us, we have a friend who is a bee keeper who was happy to take care of our problem.

Tammy

[flyin-lowe]

Tammy you should have jumped up there and sprinkled some seven dust on them.

[Robbo]

WOW!!!
I HOPE THAT CANNOT HAPPEN! What would you do?

[Winger]

flyin-lowe....If this should happen again I will pay your airfare from Indiana to TX... pick you up in Houston and drive for 2 1/2+ hours... hand you the seven.... We always keep great wine & cheese around...and then I will serve a terrific dinner! Or, do you want me to call our "bee keeper" friend? Your call! Will keep you posted!

Tammy

[Joe Zorn]

nbaum - An old forum member, CB Baily has Two hive boxes UNDER his PM rack. It did no affect the activities of either the birds or the bees in the least.

But he did comment that the bees would sometimes follow closely behind an incoming martin to it's nest. I reminded him of old war movies with Jap zeros lining up on an enemy bomber.

The bees, otherwise did not harass the birds, nor did the birds feed on the nearby bees.

[jldoll]

Tammy
If flying low dosn't take you up on your offer. I would guarantee I could remove the gourd from your rack, remove the bees from the gourd and install them into a shipping box. Take them to the US post office and mail them to myself here in Indiana. The most difficult thing would be to find the queen and put her into a small queen cage. The bees will be in an open shipping wire cage. This is the way bees are shipped in the USA.
Thousands of pounds of bees go through the US post office every year they just don't set them on the front desk so everyone can see them.
Please don't put posion on any honey bees. For one thing, I am sure it's against the law to do this.
Most people don't under stand the very important roll the bees have in the pollination requirments of our food crops.
Agriculture estimates that one third of human diet is derived from insect pollinated plants. And the honey bees are responsible for 70 to 80% of this pollination.
University studies concluded the direct value of the US honey bee to agriculture is more than 14 billion dollars per year.
So" like honey bees or not, bees are needed in the world and preform a important function in our food production.
Please look for yourself. Please Google
Honey bee pollination facts
crop pollination requirments of honey bees
crops pollinated by honey bees
valuable crop pollinators.

Today there is 6 to 8 inches of snow the wind has been blowing all night. My martins will not be hear untill middle of april hope they stay far enough south for there food requirments.
Only 4 months but I am ready for them.
Jerry

[Debba]

Thanks, "jldoll" for your great post on the value of bees. They deserve an equal amount of respect as our martin friends ~ so please keep the sevin and other deadly chemicals away from the bees! We must all value the job these incredible insects do for us and our food supply! ...and love that wonderful raw honey!
Again, I would consider the "Lessons Learned" comments at the end of James Ray's article in the fall 2010 "Purple Martin Update" about his sad experience with his honey bees that swarmed his martin house killing 16 nestlings. He obviously has a tremendous knowledge and respect for both our martin and bee friends.

[KathyF]

Hi Nbaum - some thoughts: what types of entrances do you have on your T-14? If you have SREH, you might want to try opening up a few of the entrances to be round holes. Sometimes, martins that have never encountered SREH won't enter it.

Please post pictures of your site and your setup and perhaps we can help you on your way to getting some martins this year!

[Bill Pec]

Don't worry about finding a queen bee for the swarm of bees pictured in a previous post on this thread There is a queen bee in the swarm. Bees normally swarm when the parent hive becomes overcrowded. At that time the parent hive will cast off a swarm of bees to reduce the hive population and to establish a new colony. This is how they multiply their species. The "old" queen usually leaves the parent colony with the swarm to find a new home. Hopefully, not in a PM house. The parent colony will then raise a new queen bee to take over egg laying duties. If conditions warrant the parent hive will throw off additional smaller swarms later in the season. These small swarms are called tea cup swarms because the swarms can be so small they can fit into a tea cup. These small swarms are doomed because their small size will not permit them to collect enough honey and generate enough heat to raise their brood or survive the winter. The swarm pictured in the PM gourd is small and if left alone, in that small space, would be doomed. Usually small swarms are not worth collecting by a bee keeper unless he/she is after the queen or plans to kill the queen and unite the small swarm with another. The combination of swarms can be difficult and if not properly done will result in the death of the bees. Swarms normally are not related and if combined will fight to the death. Also, using wild queen bees of unknown genetic background in areas where Africanized honey bees exist can be risky.
As for mail ordering bees, I do it all the time and yes, permits are required for interstate mailing or transportation of bees in all the states that I am familiar with.
As a beekeeper and a purple martin enthusiasts I have two hobbies I can look forward to when warm weather returns.

Enjoy the passion,
Bill