Timothy Grass or Aspen Chips?

[AnnieM]

For the past two years I've filled our gourds with local pine needles. They are long and sharp, so I cut them in half. Still they are very stiff and not "soft" like the white pine needles I read about that are available to landlords in the southeastern part of the country. I was at TS the other day and saw Timothy Grass and kiln-dried aspen chips in the pet section. A search for these in the forum archives and Google produced some comments re using this as nesting material, but nothing definitive one way or the other.

I read specific comments re NOT using cedar of any kind, but don't find anything that says to absolutely stay away from Timothy Grass and/or the aspen chips. I'm thinking either/both would provide a much softer layer on top of the pine needles.

Does anyone use this nesting material along with pine straw/needles or have any experience or guidance for/against? Would appreciate any recommendations one way or the other.

[Dave Duit]

Hi Annie,
You can order the soft white pine needles in bundles on the internet. Don't put the stiff sticky needles in the compartments. Best of luck throughout the coming year.

[Bulldog1]

I use regular(Southern Yellow Pine) needles in my gourds. The martins do not seem to have a problem with them, although they are sticky. I use work gloves when I put them in.

[klcretired]

Good Mornin' AnnieM
For several decades I have cut up and used pine Straw , I cut mine in very short Lengths and form a Bowl with them I also offer long pine needles and the martns will get them and take into the gourd that they choose to arrange the nest like they want it , The Pine Needles work very well and keep the Nests dry.

[4th Gen Martin Fan]

Annie,
My sister lives in Seguin, TX.
I have searched and investigated options for her pre-nest and nest changing materials.
An excellent option is available for pine straw in San Marcos and New Braunfels. I looked at my local outlet of this major home improvement store's pine straw and I cannot tell much difference between the pine straw which they obtain from Georgia and the pine needles that you can collect yourself in the Canyon Lake area.
I can pm you with the information if you want to buy it in bales from this home improvement store.
I personally like to collect my own pine needles. Loblolly or Southern yellow pine.
The timothy grass hay looks like something that HOSP are more interested in. If you offered different options to the martins I would guess that you might see a combination of things in the martin's nests.
Why the pair of martins I hosted last year were so determined to put hard, thorny holly leaves into their nest baffled me. As fast as I took them out, they put more in.
And what was the gum wrapper for?
Funny birds!

[AnnieM]

Yes, Seguin is about an hour SE of us. But it's odd. The I-35 N/S corridor is a dividing line in many ways; weather, geography, geology, flora, fauna, etc. There are many things east of I-35 that we don't have here (west). Pines are one of them. I drove to an organic nursery in Dripping Springs near Austin specifically to buy pine needles/straw, but they were the very stiff, pointy kind that we have in San Antonio/New Braunfels/San Marcos areas.
I found a nursery in Lufkin, TX that sells pine straw on line and says they have the "soft" type that I cannot find anywhere around here, so I ordered a bale from them yesterday. Lufkin is dead center in the Piney Woods of east TX so hope they are soft like they say.

Our martins put a few Live Oak leaves on top of the pine needles and that's all I've ever found but maybe that's because we are out in the country with no nearby houses to pick up scraps (or gum wrappers LOL). It doesn't sound like anyone has tried Timothy Grass or Aspen chips, so guess I better not try it either.

[dhjohnson]

Annie,
We offer white pine needles and coastal bermuda hay to our martins. We noticed them flying under our hay shelter and pulling strands out of our large round hay bales. Funny to watch a female with a 12" long piece of coastal bermuda hay trying to pull all of it into her chosen gourd only to have a tug of war ensue when a neighboring female spies the dangling hay and tries to pull it back out. They don't use a large amount of it but they do use some to weave into the nest bowl. Still others bring in small twigs and other objects of their desire. We don't use wood chips or shavings as prenests. But from other communication out here on the forum, martins use a wide variety of nesting materials, even mud, which I have yet to see here. But that serves to further support a wide diversity of nesting techniques across the country.
Best of luck in the upcoming martin season!
Debbie

[4th Gen Martin Fan]

Annie,
I agree that I35 corridor made an unexpected and unique dividing line.
I hope that I did not discourage you from trying a bale of the Timothy grass if you wanted to try it.
I suspect that if Timothy grass is available locally then it is a lot cheaper.
I do not worry about using Loblolly or southern yellow pine rather than eastern white pine or soft pine in my pre-nest or nest changing material.
Debbie in North Caroline points out that her martins are using coastal Bermuda grass and rtanner77 in Georgia indicated that his martins use hay from round hay bales placed close to his gourd racks.

http://www.purplemartin.org/forum/download.php?id=10856

I am considering the extruded polystyrene rigid foam board insulation which is currently being discussed by John Barrow and Louise Chambers.

http://www.purplemartin.org/forum/viewt ... +nestboxes

http://www.purplemartin.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15202

I vaguely remember a YouTube video which showed man who uses the extruded polystyrene foam board exclusively as pre-nest. The martins were only putting a few green leaves in his nest bowls.
In summary, I am open to new ideas if they are better for the martins.

[4th Gen Martin Fan]

Annie,
You mentioned in your original post that you had read that cedar shavings were bad?
Is this information based upon the fact that cedar shavings retain moisture more than pine needles?
I scanned through the PMCA Archives and found the article, "PMCA info about using cedar in Martin houses."

http://www.purplemartin.org/forumarchiv ... avings.htm

Have recommendations changed from this excellent article dated 5/30/2000?
Mark.

[AnnieM]

Mark, the link you provided was excellent and just what I was looking for re using cedar for nesting material. It makes sense that we could use them initially and that the vapor/smell would wear off by the time the nestlings are born. I really appreciate the help. For some reason that did not come up in my forum search.

We have one more cold spell today/tomorrow and then 70s. My hubby helped me drill holes in my gourds and yesterday I screwed in the 3/4" elbows I ordered on the Internet and caulked them so now our martins will have a bit of a/c going on during May/June when it gets so hot here. Only thing left to do is replace the rope on my old rack and get the gourds filled with nesting material. The past two years our martins have arrived March 2nd. I haven't seen a one so far, but saw on the scout report that one was seen in Boerne, which is 45 minutes west of here. They will be here in no more than 2 weeks and I should already have everything up in case they arrive early!!

I really appreciate all the suggestions everyone provided. The forum is absolutely the best resource and everyone is always ready to offer help. It's a great comfort when we are worrying about what to do for our PM friends and we hear from someone who has tried and been successful with some technique and takes the time to share.

[Nikkidodi - SATX]

A very interesting topic on which bedding is best to provide the Martins. I use "aged" cedar chips (from a bail that has sat in the garage for a years "airing out". I read with interest the article posted via link by Mark. I may have read it previously, but the re-read was very useful.

It contained a note from Louise on the return rate of fledglings. "The return rate is twice the published norm return rate of banded young to their natal site." My question is: What is the normal return rate of the fledglings?

[DornCounty]

I Put piles of stuff out for the martins.... they almost equally picked "hay", pine straw, and random weeds.