SREH cavity floor flush with porch?
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Fireflyfisherman
- Posts: 95
- Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2015 5:26 pm
- Location: TX/Mckinney
- Martin Colony History: 2021 New Site - Fingers Crossed
2020 - 30 pair (122 Fledged)
2019 - 30 pair (120 Fledged)
2018 - 14 pair (52 Fledged)
2017 - 6 pair (20 Fledged)
2016 - 1 Pair (5 Fledged)
2015 - 1 Pair (3 Fledged)
This is my first attempt to become a martin landlord. I have modified a S&K, made it into 6x12 compartments, added SREH and I added porches that are 1/8" below the entrance hole. Now do I need to raise up the cavity floor to be flush with the porch or will the martins be able to step up out of the cavity and exit the sreh? After reading many posts i have been unable to find the answer. Hopefully the question makes sense.
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John Miller
- Posts: 4866
- Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 9:11 pm
- Location: St. Louis, MO
If your inside floor is over one half inch below the SREH, especially say one inch or more, then yes, martins may have a trouble exiting the SREH. If it's one inch or more, they might even get inside and not be able to get out. This is why we put porches on gourds inside and outside. You probably don't need an interior porch. Consider an interior subfloor, which you probably need anyway to keep nests dry. but yes, the level on the inside should always be considered too.
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Fireflyfisherman
- Posts: 95
- Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2015 5:26 pm
- Location: TX/Mckinney
- Martin Colony History: 2021 New Site - Fingers Crossed
2020 - 30 pair (122 Fledged)
2019 - 30 pair (120 Fledged)
2018 - 14 pair (52 Fledged)
2017 - 6 pair (20 Fledged)
2016 - 1 Pair (5 Fledged)
2015 - 1 Pair (3 Fledged)
So put a subfloor in the entrance room that brings the floor closer to the SREH exit? Do I need to add anything to the 3" hole (the one between the 2 6X6 rooms) that is about an inch from the floor.
Thanks for the response and the advice.
Thanks for the response and the advice.
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4th Gen Martin Fan
- Posts: 1498
- Joined: Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:19 pm
- Location: TN/Collierville
- Martin Colony History: I have been exposed to purple martin sounds in utero when my mother went out to get my father away from his martin colony.
I played around the martin colony every summer and watched as my father maintained his colony. In the late 50's until the 70's he did not notice European Starlings in south Texas.
When old enough, I helped maintain his colony. My primary task was eliminating English House Sparrows with a 1956 Benjamin 317 .177 air rifle.
When I settled into my own home, I started my first colony with an original Trio Castle and Trio Grandpa. When I moved again, I did not put up any martin houses. Frustration with European Starlings in the Southeast US was overwhelming.
Found PMCA Forum and learned about modern enlarged compartments and SREHs.
Inherited my father's last martin house, a Trio Grandma, modified it to modern specifications and have had good results since then.
My impression is John is advising you to bring the entrance subfloor 1/2" or less to the bottom edge of a crescent or clinger SREH. I believe it would be okay to have a subfloor 1/2" or less to the bottom tips of a Snyder Excluder or Excluder II SREH.
I make the entrance subfloor for my crescent entrances about 1/8" below the bottom of the crescent. No problem for the martins to enter or exit.
I am not sure what to tell you if your SREHs are Snyder Excluder or Excluder II entrances. Someone else will have to tell you if the entrance subfloors can come within an 1/8" below the bottom tips of the Excluder or Excluder II entrances.
I like the advise (Emil Pampell?) to keep the bottom of the divider wall higher to keep eggs or small nestlings from falling out of the nesting compartment. I now raise the bottom of my dividing wall holes to 1 - 1 1/4" above the subfloor of the nesting compartment on my Trio houses.
I had both eggs and nestlings fall out of the nesting compartment when the bottom of the dividing wall hole was only 1/2" above the subfloors. Luckily my nest checks discovered the problem before it was too late.
Mark.
I make the entrance subfloor for my crescent entrances about 1/8" below the bottom of the crescent. No problem for the martins to enter or exit.
I am not sure what to tell you if your SREHs are Snyder Excluder or Excluder II entrances. Someone else will have to tell you if the entrance subfloors can come within an 1/8" below the bottom tips of the Excluder or Excluder II entrances.
I like the advise (Emil Pampell?) to keep the bottom of the divider wall higher to keep eggs or small nestlings from falling out of the nesting compartment. I now raise the bottom of my dividing wall holes to 1 - 1 1/4" above the subfloor of the nesting compartment on my Trio houses.
I had both eggs and nestlings fall out of the nesting compartment when the bottom of the dividing wall hole was only 1/2" above the subfloors. Luckily my nest checks discovered the problem before it was too late.
Mark.
Mark.
Firm believer in HOSP/EUST Control, Enlarged Compartments, SREHs, Pole Predator Guards, Owl/Hawk Guards, Mite/Parasite Control, Housing Insulation, and Vents for Compartment Cooling.
PMCA Member.
Firm believer in HOSP/EUST Control, Enlarged Compartments, SREHs, Pole Predator Guards, Owl/Hawk Guards, Mite/Parasite Control, Housing Insulation, and Vents for Compartment Cooling.
PMCA Member.
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John Miller
- Posts: 4866
- Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 9:11 pm
- Location: St. Louis, MO
mark is correct.
RE martins passing through the 3 inch hole, they can do this easily at one inch. I think they really should be 1.5 inches, as said, to keep younger babies and eggs better in the nest. With a sub floor in the nest room, it would be a little less.
Martins can negotiate a SREH hole at one half inch. It may be ideal for them to go through at this height. However, we recommend that it be lower, at least on the outside, to make the hole more restrictive to starlings who have longer legs and when the hole is lower find it more difficult to enter. Hope this makes sense.
RE martins passing through the 3 inch hole, they can do this easily at one inch. I think they really should be 1.5 inches, as said, to keep younger babies and eggs better in the nest. With a sub floor in the nest room, it would be a little less.
Martins can negotiate a SREH hole at one half inch. It may be ideal for them to go through at this height. However, we recommend that it be lower, at least on the outside, to make the hole more restrictive to starlings who have longer legs and when the hole is lower find it more difficult to enter. Hope this makes sense.
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Fireflyfisherman
- Posts: 95
- Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2015 5:26 pm
- Location: TX/Mckinney
- Martin Colony History: 2021 New Site - Fingers Crossed
2020 - 30 pair (122 Fledged)
2019 - 30 pair (120 Fledged)
2018 - 14 pair (52 Fledged)
2017 - 6 pair (20 Fledged)
2016 - 1 Pair (5 Fledged)
2015 - 1 Pair (3 Fledged)
Thank you all for your help. There is so much to learn and I have been scouring this forum. Sometimes I just don't know what to call the things I am searching for. I added photos because I am a picture guy. There is about a 1/4" space between subfloor to crescent entrance.[/img]
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- view of subfloor inside
- subfloor.jpg (40.66 KiB) Viewed 8142 times
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- view of subfloor from outside
- subflooroutside.jpg (38.67 KiB) Viewed 8176 times
Great additional point John.John Miller wrote:Consider an interior subfloor, which you probably need anyway to keep nests dry.
Houses where the compartment floors and porches are one piece, and use flip-up doors (all Trio/Nature House models, all Coates models, and many of the S&K models), really do need some type of elevated subfloor, to keep the nests off the floor, and dry.
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jr 2
- Posts: 749
- Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2011 3:20 pm
- Location: ohio,proctorville(just across ohio river from huntington,west virginia)
I have 4 s&k houses and 4 trio with cresent entrance with expanded compartments and porches added and I don't have subfloors in the entrance room but I have subfloors in the nesting room;;seems like the martins build the entry room space up with material;;my concern if you have a subfloor in entrance room is that the cresent entrance would get blocked????????? why are the cresents made that high if martins can't get out?????jr2
PMCA member; s 2011 2 pair fledged 3; 2012 3 asy pair,4 sy pair,2013 8 asy pair,6 sy pair;2014 19 asy pair,2 sy pair
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John Miller
- Posts: 4866
- Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 9:11 pm
- Location: St. Louis, MO
flyfisherman -- looks fine.
JR...how high are your crescents? I seem to remember some S&K houses at one time set them an inch high or so high...maybe the thinking at the time was that this would be more starling resistant, but I may be incorrect. martins probably can enter and exit, but they have short legs and I'm thinking it's more difficult for them.
Over the years, we have refined what we think works, and have settled on placing crescents no more than one-fourth inch off the floor, gaining a little more starling resistance at one-eighth inch without making too difficult for martins, and sometimes if starlings are getting in then placing crescents flush.
JR...how high are your crescents? I seem to remember some S&K houses at one time set them an inch high or so high...maybe the thinking at the time was that this would be more starling resistant, but I may be incorrect. martins probably can enter and exit, but they have short legs and I'm thinking it's more difficult for them.
Over the years, we have refined what we think works, and have settled on placing crescents no more than one-fourth inch off the floor, gaining a little more starling resistance at one-eighth inch without making too difficult for martins, and sometimes if starlings are getting in then placing crescents flush.
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Fireflyfisherman
- Posts: 95
- Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2015 5:26 pm
- Location: TX/Mckinney
- Martin Colony History: 2021 New Site - Fingers Crossed
2020 - 30 pair (122 Fledged)
2019 - 30 pair (120 Fledged)
2018 - 14 pair (52 Fledged)
2017 - 6 pair (20 Fledged)
2016 - 1 Pair (5 Fledged)
2015 - 1 Pair (3 Fledged)
Matt - S&K SREH crescents are 1" from the floor.
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Fireflyfisherman
- Posts: 95
- Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2015 5:26 pm
- Location: TX/Mckinney
- Martin Colony History: 2021 New Site - Fingers Crossed
2020 - 30 pair (122 Fledged)
2019 - 30 pair (120 Fledged)
2018 - 14 pair (52 Fledged)
2017 - 6 pair (20 Fledged)
2016 - 1 Pair (5 Fledged)
2015 - 1 Pair (3 Fledged)
I have been searching the forum and there are some older posts about using styrofoam as an insert/subfloor. This is nice because I don't want to add unnecessary weight but they are old posts and I was wondering if people were moving away from this. Would you just use cedar (heavy and won't move around and block opening) or would you use the styrofoam to save the weight?
Thank you all for your help.
Thank you all for your help.
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4th Gen Martin Fan
- Posts: 1498
- Joined: Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:19 pm
- Location: TN/Collierville
- Martin Colony History: I have been exposed to purple martin sounds in utero when my mother went out to get my father away from his martin colony.
I played around the martin colony every summer and watched as my father maintained his colony. In the late 50's until the 70's he did not notice European Starlings in south Texas.
When old enough, I helped maintain his colony. My primary task was eliminating English House Sparrows with a 1956 Benjamin 317 .177 air rifle.
When I settled into my own home, I started my first colony with an original Trio Castle and Trio Grandpa. When I moved again, I did not put up any martin houses. Frustration with European Starlings in the Southeast US was overwhelming.
Found PMCA Forum and learned about modern enlarged compartments and SREHs.
Inherited my father's last martin house, a Trio Grandma, modified it to modern specifications and have had good results since then.
The extruded foam board is great for elevating the nesting compartment floors. I use the 1/2" extruded polystyrene R3 foam board. It comes in either pink, blue, or mauve depending upon the supplier. The color is irrelevant but it lets you know that it is not the white Styrofoam which is too fragile and bad for this application.
Last year I got in a hurry to cut some for a Trio Grandpa house that a mentee needed stat. I did not pre-make the nest bowl like some people do. That rush job was in retrospect a blessing. The martins scratched out a shallow nest bowl with their feet exactly where they wanted it in relation to the offset dividing wall holes. The nest bowl they scratched out was in a location of the compartment which afforded the most protection. It proved to me that they want to be as far away from the prying eyes of predators as possible. For martins, instinct rules.
The 1/2" extruded foam board is readily available at the home improvement store. It was only available in 4' X 8' sheets at my local store. That is okay with me because it works great and I will be using it a lot more.
It insulates the eggs and nestlings from cold in the early spring. The females usually do not use as much nesting material with the foam board in place. It elevates the floor from rain. I did drill a couple of holes in the center of their nest bowls so that water can drain and does not pool in their nest bowl.
I will guess that they should last at least 3-4 seasons before they need to be replaced.
I believe that the foam board will be better than cedar because the foam board will not absorb water. I hope the foam board will allow any nesting material to dry out faster. Plus the foam board is much lighter.
It can be cut with a sharp utility knife from both sides with ease. It makes a mess if you try to cut it with a saw. Trust me I know! It is especially a bad idea if you do it in the house on a rainy day. My wife had a fit that day. Never again.
I cut the foam board tight enough in each individual nesting compartment so it cannot shift or blow up and block an entrance.
In summary, I would highly recommend it.
Mark.
Last year I got in a hurry to cut some for a Trio Grandpa house that a mentee needed stat. I did not pre-make the nest bowl like some people do. That rush job was in retrospect a blessing. The martins scratched out a shallow nest bowl with their feet exactly where they wanted it in relation to the offset dividing wall holes. The nest bowl they scratched out was in a location of the compartment which afforded the most protection. It proved to me that they want to be as far away from the prying eyes of predators as possible. For martins, instinct rules.
The 1/2" extruded foam board is readily available at the home improvement store. It was only available in 4' X 8' sheets at my local store. That is okay with me because it works great and I will be using it a lot more.
It insulates the eggs and nestlings from cold in the early spring. The females usually do not use as much nesting material with the foam board in place. It elevates the floor from rain. I did drill a couple of holes in the center of their nest bowls so that water can drain and does not pool in their nest bowl.
I will guess that they should last at least 3-4 seasons before they need to be replaced.
I believe that the foam board will be better than cedar because the foam board will not absorb water. I hope the foam board will allow any nesting material to dry out faster. Plus the foam board is much lighter.
It can be cut with a sharp utility knife from both sides with ease. It makes a mess if you try to cut it with a saw. Trust me I know! It is especially a bad idea if you do it in the house on a rainy day. My wife had a fit that day. Never again.
I cut the foam board tight enough in each individual nesting compartment so it cannot shift or blow up and block an entrance.
In summary, I would highly recommend it.
Mark.
Last edited by 4th Gen Martin Fan on Sun Mar 22, 2015 1:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Mark.
Firm believer in HOSP/EUST Control, Enlarged Compartments, SREHs, Pole Predator Guards, Owl/Hawk Guards, Mite/Parasite Control, Housing Insulation, and Vents for Compartment Cooling.
PMCA Member.
Firm believer in HOSP/EUST Control, Enlarged Compartments, SREHs, Pole Predator Guards, Owl/Hawk Guards, Mite/Parasite Control, Housing Insulation, and Vents for Compartment Cooling.
PMCA Member.
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4th Gen Martin Fan
- Posts: 1498
- Joined: Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:19 pm
- Location: TN/Collierville
- Martin Colony History: I have been exposed to purple martin sounds in utero when my mother went out to get my father away from his martin colony.
I played around the martin colony every summer and watched as my father maintained his colony. In the late 50's until the 70's he did not notice European Starlings in south Texas.
When old enough, I helped maintain his colony. My primary task was eliminating English House Sparrows with a 1956 Benjamin 317 .177 air rifle.
When I settled into my own home, I started my first colony with an original Trio Castle and Trio Grandpa. When I moved again, I did not put up any martin houses. Frustration with European Starlings in the Southeast US was overwhelming.
Found PMCA Forum and learned about modern enlarged compartments and SREHs.
Inherited my father's last martin house, a Trio Grandma, modified it to modern specifications and have had good results since then.
The Trio Grandpa house which has the extruded foam board subfloors is in an ideal location. Wide open space, several lakes, large pasture land for insects and human activity close by.
It is located next to a community garden with exposure to new prospective landlords.
Last year it was full and each nest had at least 4 fledglings. Several nests of ASY parents had 6 fledglings.
Yesterday I was putting it back up from winter storage and 5 purple martins soared overhead and sung excitedly as I was assembling it! Unfortunately, it was too dark by the time I was finished and they flew north toward a subdivision where I know there are several martin landlords. Maybe today they will have a chance to investigate before it starts raining. I know that this house and location is excellent for them.
I wish I had taken pictures of the foam board subfloors to document what I described in my last post.
I know that you have spent a lot of time making the cedar subfloors but unless you are totally committed, I would recommend you try some of the foam board subfloors in your house.
Mark.
It is located next to a community garden with exposure to new prospective landlords.
Last year it was full and each nest had at least 4 fledglings. Several nests of ASY parents had 6 fledglings.
Yesterday I was putting it back up from winter storage and 5 purple martins soared overhead and sung excitedly as I was assembling it! Unfortunately, it was too dark by the time I was finished and they flew north toward a subdivision where I know there are several martin landlords. Maybe today they will have a chance to investigate before it starts raining. I know that this house and location is excellent for them.
I wish I had taken pictures of the foam board subfloors to document what I described in my last post.
I know that you have spent a lot of time making the cedar subfloors but unless you are totally committed, I would recommend you try some of the foam board subfloors in your house.
Mark.
Mark.
Firm believer in HOSP/EUST Control, Enlarged Compartments, SREHs, Pole Predator Guards, Owl/Hawk Guards, Mite/Parasite Control, Housing Insulation, and Vents for Compartment Cooling.
PMCA Member.
Firm believer in HOSP/EUST Control, Enlarged Compartments, SREHs, Pole Predator Guards, Owl/Hawk Guards, Mite/Parasite Control, Housing Insulation, and Vents for Compartment Cooling.
PMCA Member.
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jr 2
- Posts: 749
- Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2011 3:20 pm
- Location: ohio,proctorville(just across ohio river from huntington,west virginia)
I just got finished today putting in subfloor in entrance compartments in my s&k houses''i used the 1/2 in foam board that is black on 1 side and silver on other and then I put pieces of roof shingle on top that I had left over;; ;;I cut it so it would not move around and fit tigh I had this left over from my house project a couple years ago;;;I did notice last year that the martins were having trouble getting out to start with;;;jr2
PMCA member; s 2011 2 pair fledged 3; 2012 3 asy pair,4 sy pair,2013 8 asy pair,6 sy pair;2014 19 asy pair,2 sy pair
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Fireflyfisherman
- Posts: 95
- Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2015 5:26 pm
- Location: TX/Mckinney
- Martin Colony History: 2021 New Site - Fingers Crossed
2020 - 30 pair (122 Fledged)
2019 - 30 pair (120 Fledged)
2018 - 14 pair (52 Fledged)
2017 - 6 pair (20 Fledged)
2016 - 1 Pair (5 Fledged)
2015 - 1 Pair (3 Fledged)
Do yall glue down the foam subfloors or is the tight fit enough to keep them from moving around with all the commotion that occurs in nest boxes? I got some of the blue foam and cut the subfloors and they fit tight (flipped the house over and they didn't come out or shift). I was thinking using a hot glue gun to further secure but want to make sure the glue won't kill babies etc. how do you secure subfloors?
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John Miller
- Posts: 4866
- Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 9:11 pm
- Location: St. Louis, MO
they won't need to be glued if they are cut snug and lay flat. Cleaning will be far easier and more thorough if you can remove them, and you'll likely want to replace them in a year or two. John M
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4th Gen Martin Fan
- Posts: 1498
- Joined: Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:19 pm
- Location: TN/Collierville
- Martin Colony History: I have been exposed to purple martin sounds in utero when my mother went out to get my father away from his martin colony.
I played around the martin colony every summer and watched as my father maintained his colony. In the late 50's until the 70's he did not notice European Starlings in south Texas.
When old enough, I helped maintain his colony. My primary task was eliminating English House Sparrows with a 1956 Benjamin 317 .177 air rifle.
When I settled into my own home, I started my first colony with an original Trio Castle and Trio Grandpa. When I moved again, I did not put up any martin houses. Frustration with European Starlings in the Southeast US was overwhelming.
Found PMCA Forum and learned about modern enlarged compartments and SREHs.
Inherited my father's last martin house, a Trio Grandma, modified it to modern specifications and have had good results since then.
John is right again. You do not want to glue the EPS (extruded polystyrene) foam board subfloors in permanently. They will not flip up if you have fit them as tight as you described.
The hot glue would not be a problem but I definitely would not glue them.
Sounds like you did a great job of fitting them in place!
I did drill 3 holes in the center of the 1/2" foam board subfloors for drainage. I made the holes in a triangle pattern about 1" apart. The next year after they had nested on the subfloor, I drilled one hole in the center of their nest bowl that they had scratched out.
I cut my dividing wall holes offset to one side and I can now predict which corner of the nesting chamber they will build their nest bowl in. The next time I make these foam board subfloors I am going to drill one additional hole in that area of the subfloor.
Mark.
The hot glue would not be a problem but I definitely would not glue them.
Sounds like you did a great job of fitting them in place!
I did drill 3 holes in the center of the 1/2" foam board subfloors for drainage. I made the holes in a triangle pattern about 1" apart. The next year after they had nested on the subfloor, I drilled one hole in the center of their nest bowl that they had scratched out.
I cut my dividing wall holes offset to one side and I can now predict which corner of the nesting chamber they will build their nest bowl in. The next time I make these foam board subfloors I am going to drill one additional hole in that area of the subfloor.
Mark.
Mark.
Firm believer in HOSP/EUST Control, Enlarged Compartments, SREHs, Pole Predator Guards, Owl/Hawk Guards, Mite/Parasite Control, Housing Insulation, and Vents for Compartment Cooling.
PMCA Member.
Firm believer in HOSP/EUST Control, Enlarged Compartments, SREHs, Pole Predator Guards, Owl/Hawk Guards, Mite/Parasite Control, Housing Insulation, and Vents for Compartment Cooling.
PMCA Member.
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Guest
I just built a house and put that 1/2" foam in a 4x8 sheet I cut it about 1/8" smaller than my house inside dimensions and its a snug fit I made my SREH hole 1/2" above the foam and so far so good. I was worried about the smell or the pink but the birds have been in every hole looking around and scoping it out 24 hours after install.Fireflyfisherman wrote:This is my first attempt to become a martin landlord. I have modified a S&K, made it into 6x12 compartments, added SREH and I added porches that are 1/8" below the entrance hole. Now do I need to raise up the cavity floor to be flush with the porch or will the martins be able to step up out of the cavity and exit the sreh? After reading many posts i have been unable to find the answer. Hopefully the question makes sense.