Martin pole placement and gourd entry hole styles Any helpful info really

[amethyst.aviators]

Hi, I am new here. Quick background I purchased a property with a several decade long established martin colony. I was told it would be easy, you dont do anything because they eat bugs! This summer has been a bit unexpectedly worrisome with the martins. Basically I am trying to read online because I dont know what I am doing. That in mind, please be patient and I assume I know nothing!

The martins all appear to be out of the gourds and flying now.

Here is what I have 2 poles (25ft tall) with 60 gourds total (both poles). The poles pivot at the base, the gourd racks are welded to the pole. The gourds are not fancy at all. they have no access port, a 2 inch round hole for the entrance. 1 pole is near woods (not thick woods... woods like 3 trees "thick") the other pole is on the edge of a pond. I have a lot of work to do before martins come next year.

Pole placement
Problem #1 Baby martins were jumping out of gourds and were clearly not ready for flight. I think they got hot in the gourds. They kind of hopped and maybe got two inches off the ground. This happened with the babies living in the one martin pole housing that is close to our pond. I mean its 6 to 8 feet from the edge of the pond! I think that is way too close to the pond. Also the arms of the gourd racks extend out more or less to the pond edge and there was a dead fledgling in the pond. How far from a pond should a pole be? I sort of like the idea of putting it over near the pole by woods because in the later afternoon the blazing sun is shielded by the tree line. Watching the martins come here this year, it seemed the pond pole was the "preferred" housing. It is a non-stop dragonfly supply, and of course the martins swoop down and drink from it. The hot afternoon sun reflects off the water and it is just too much heat I think. Then again, the pole cannot be too close to trees, which would cut down the intense afternoon sun.

Gourd entrance hole
Problem #2 The gourds here are not ideal. I know I need a system where you can raise and lower the gourds. I need gourds made with opaque plastic, an access port and also I need some ventilation built in too. When you look at all the gourd stuff for sale it gets overwhelming. Will the martins come back and not take to the new style gourds I put up? If you are going from circular holes would the half circle be the best? Because this is a really long established colony that has only had gourd style housing should I stay with gourd housing? When I watched the martins this year I noticed near the end of the nest maturation time, they were poking their heads out of the gourds anxiously waiting for Mom and Dad to feed them snacks...so if you have a half circle entrance do they get all jammed up in the entrance?

I am thinking this is how I tackle it. 1) pole placement 2) gourd rack lowering system 3) gourd style with mods?

The gourds are extraordinarily expensive when you are looking at 60 of them, so I may not even do that many in 2023.

That was a lot of rambling. Any ideas of pole placement and gourd opening style?
Thank you

[millerjr88]

One very important thing to remember when dealing with pole placement: purple Martins have excellent site fidelity and returning adults will always look for the housing in the same spot it was the year before, so I would hesitate to move a pole more than just a foot or two. As far as hole style, martins will readily accept the half moon entrance holes, these are designed to keep starlings out of the nests. If you have starlings in your area, I would not use a regular round hole as starlings will get in and kill the baby martins, but if you don't have starlings in your area then round holes aren't a problem. Troyers Birds Paradise in PA has some very good resource material on purple martins if you call them at link not allowed they are usually glad to offer you advice and suggestions. Hope this helps, and enjoy those martins!

[C.C.Martins]

Were the gourds you had completely full? All 60 had nests?

What you could do (I don't know how the existing gourds are hung), is a slow gourd replacement. I wouldn't want to pay for 60 gourds either. Maybe a slow measured gourd replacement, then tackle the poles. If the gourds are upgraded I think your chick jumping problems will be minimized.
Sounds like any upgrade will be a good thing. Martins will accept them, can go with crescents (half moon).

You inherited quite the colony, and now realize they aren't fire and forget birds. You came to the right place. There are folks here who have been waiting for years.

It also comes down to how many can or are you willing to manage? If its 30, that's good, if its 60 good too.

The suggestion to call is a good one. You should get lots of ideas.

When you decide on your gourds, come back here, we can help you make sure they are spot on.

Congrats on your colony, welcome aboard and do what you can to help them. They are fantastic.

Tom

[defed]

as long as the poles are such that you can manage the gourds, i would start by replacing a few each year. they are cheaper per gourd the more you buy. i admit, i did not get my horizontals from PMCA, i believe troyer had a better deal.

if the poles do not allow for managing, i would consider some options to replace them, but in the same spot. if you were to buy, for example, a PMCA gourd rack, you could raise them up and down. i have a wooden pole that tilts on a parallelogram, keeping the housing upright as you tilt it down. probably a lot cheaper than an aluminum system, but would require a little woodworking skill and tools. also making a predator guard for it is a challenge. i plan to phase mine out (it's over 20 yrs old) but it is still working fine, though it does need some repair this off season. i could provide details on it if you are interested.

[amethyst.aviators]

One very important thing to remember when dealing with pole placement: purple Martins have excellent site fidelity and returning adults will always look for the housing in the same spot it was the year before, so I would hesitate to move a pole more than just a foot or two. As far as hole style, martins will readily accept the half moon entrance holes, these are designed to keep starlings out of the nests. If you have starlings in your area, I would not use a regular round hole as starlings will get in and kill the baby martins, but if you don't have starlings in your area then round holes aren't a problem. Troyers Birds Paradise in PA has some very good resource material on purple martins if you call them at link not allowed they are usually glad to offer you advice and suggestions. Hope this helps, and enjoy those martins!

Thank you. I have been looking at birds that are flying around here. I also looked at pics online of starlings and sparrows. As for starlings, it seems their feathers have a small amount of white, and I assume at a distance they look solid black? I did see what looked like solid black birds in a small group and observed these birds are ground feeders. I honestly dont know if starlings are here. I have not observed sparrows. Since the gourds are expensive, I'll probably choose a starling resistance entrance since I am trying to avoid buying something I will regret. I sent the Troyer Bird company an email from their contact us form online. We'll see what they say. Some of the entrance holes look very restrictive and I do not want to discourage martins. I guess that doesnt happen?

[amethyst.aviators]

Were the gourds you had completely full? All 60 had nests?

What you could do (I don't know how the existing gourds are hung), is a slow gourd replacement. I wouldn't want to pay for 60 gourds either. Maybe a slow measured gourd replacement, then tackle the poles. If the gourds are upgraded I think your chick jumping problems will be minimized.
Sounds like any upgrade will be a good thing. Martins will accept them, can go with crescents (half moon).

You inherited quite the colony, and now realize they aren't fire and forget birds. You came to the right place. There are folks here who have been waiting for years.

It also comes down to how many can or are you willing to manage? If its 30, that's good, if its 60 good too.

The suggestion to call is a good one. You should get lots of ideas.

When you decide on your gourds, come back here, we can help you make sure they are spot on.

Congrats on your colony, welcome aboard and do what you can to help them. They are fantastic.

Tom

Hi Tom, IDK if all 60 gourds are nested. I would assume no. I read online to keep the gourds up through all of August. It will be interesting to see how many nests there are, and are more of them by the pond? Things like that. Definitely many birds were here.

IDK forum rules and posting links might be prohibited. There is a company that sells a kit for natural gourds. It has an access port, and a circular entrance cap with a starling resistant opening etc. Basically all the little things you need to take a natural and make it proper. That in mind, retro fitting some of these plastic gourds with a kit like that would help me. Additionally upgrading 24 "nice" gourds per year is much more realistic, and maybe mix in retro fitted plastic ones? These plastic ones are a medium brown color. Would painting them white be a good or bad idea? Would the paint sort of insulate the gourds and make them hotter?

I dont like the idea of a martin pair who would like a gourd not having one on this site because I can't afford 60 at once. I want every bird pair to have a nice home. Whatever quantity I can afford of the nice opaque gourds I think should be placed on the pond pole because it can become intensely hot out there. Other idea is count how many gourds have nest and just put out that number of gourds. If I do not retro fit the brown plastic ones (they have round holes) then the martins might not take to the crescent entrance ones because they are "new" to them and too much work to squeeze into?

Thank you and everyone for all your insights

[defed]

PMCA sells access port and entrance retrofit items. some people use round holes until some point in the nesting season then switch to the starling resistant, when they are committed to the nest and will get in, whereas they might not try so hard before that. i have conley ii entrances and they seem to navigate them fine and i have never seen a starling get in.

[amethyst.aviators]

as long as the poles are such that you can manage the gourds, i would start by replacing a few each year. they are cheaper per gourd the more you buy. i admit, i did not get my horizontals from PMCA, i believe troyer had a better deal.

if the poles do not allow for managing, i would consider some options to replace them, but in the same spot. if you were to buy, for example, a PMCA gourd rack, you could raise them up and down. i have a wooden pole that tilts on a parallelogram, keeping the housing upright as you tilt it down. probably a lot cheaper than an aluminum system, but would require a little woodworking skill and tools. also making a predator guard for it is a challenge. i plan to phase mine out (it's over 20 yrs old) but it is still working fine, though it does need some repair this off season. i could provide details on it if you are interested.

Yes, I am interested in your system. I cant quite wrap my mind around it. I have from Sept - Jan so 5 months to get my set up better. I want to be ready by Feb 1, 2023. I wrote it my calendar(too lazy to look right now) but I do know there were about 6 martins at the pond pole at the end of February. Withing a month there were dozens of birds here. Also there is an old wooden pole by the pond with very small racks and very bad looking gourds. Zero martins nested there. Theyre smart, that housing looks BAD. It has probably 12 gourds (in addition to the 60 on the active poles). I was thinking of taking that pole and maybe doing feeding trays. Maybe oyster shell or maybe trays with nest materials IDK. I was just thinking something useful could happen with the pole. The martins loved to land on the roosts/gourd rack arms

Over the course of this fall, I probably will have to post questions as I work on this project. I hope seasoned landlords will check the forums here a few times a months. Thank you everyone!

[amethyst.aviators]

PMCA sells access port and entrance retrofit items. some people use round holes until some point in the nesting season then switch to the starling resistant, when they are committed to the nest and will get in, whereas they might not try so hard before that. i have conley ii entrances and they seem to navigate them fine and i have never seen a starling get in.

"when they are committed to the nest and will get in, whereas they might not try so hard before that"
I never thought of that. i knew coming here and discussing martin management would be helpful.
Thank you

[defed]

"when they are committed to the nest and will get in, whereas they might not try so hard before that"
I never thought of that. i knew coming here and discussing martin management would be helpful.
Thank you

i used to have round holes to try and help my chances, but i have tons of starlings. then i saw the state park about 6 miles away had troyer horizontals w/ conley ii entrances so i put those up figuring birds coming here might be from there. seems to have worked, finally have my 1st pair this year w/ lots of extra visitors.

i may be the only one in the world currently using the parallelogram tilting pole. i found it in the PMCA magazine, Ron Seekamp was using them and i got the plans from him. This was over 20 yrs ago and i think Ron was in his 70's then, so he's has probably passed. funny thing is, i can't find that old article anywhere online. i can take pics of my pole and of the plans.

a few pics here, but they don't really show it that well:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=32413&p=263869&sid= ... 85#p263869

[C.C.Martins]

If your worried about the pole being too close to the water, do not be too hesitant to move it. I say that because iv moved our gourds twice, 12 feet each time and they accepted just fine, I think moving the pole will be ok, your not making a change from a house to gourds or vice versa.

Here's my thoughts:
They like open areas, avoid trees. Close to the pond is ideal, some folks have houses right on or over the water.
Good gourds, vented, will do wonders for the chicks and adults. Less inclined to jump. Heat can make a chick jump, so too can mites and starvation. Hard to tell sometimes without looking in the gourd.

Don't worry about the smaller entrance, chicks do crowd the front but adults push through to get food to the ones in back. They know what they are doing.

If it were me I'd call either PMCA or troyer and tell them what you have. Im sure they each will give some good suggestions...probably something along the lines of a 12 unit gourd rack system with rope and pulley. Yours is a truly unique situation, you have an awesome opportunity to have a great colony! Plus your interested in making their situation better.

I asked how many nested because 60 is a lot, 30 on a gourd rack is a whole bunch maybe too many. I applaud the folks who put them up, but like most things there are better ways. I was also curious because if say 30 of the 60 were occupied my first thought was just swapping out new gourds with old ones, however a new system may be in order.

I'll stick my neck out here and suggest you buy one 12 unit gourd rack, complete with gourds. Set that up near the one by the pond. Take some of the gourds off the old pole. Im positive you will have martins accept the new system quickly.
Phase out one pole after 2023 season.
I say this with a few seasons behind me and I know exactly what I'd do. However its your pocket book and colony

See how that goes in 2023. If all goes well, move the other system closer to the pond and phase out the other one.

Making a shell or nesting material trey is a fantastic idea they will love you for it.

I rambled a bit because its very exciting, sounds like you have an awesome opportunity to help the martins, really enjoy their presence and grow a solid colony.
Hard to say where to start, gourds or pole? I'd start with gourds.

Tom

[amethyst.aviators]

Hi everyone,
Our thoughts have been more focused on gourds, rather than pole placement lately. Decided not try to retro fit the gourds that were here at this colony (small, brown plastic, not access cap etc) with the products sold for use with natural gourds. These plastic gourds too problematic, mainly diameter is 6.25 inches and that is just too small, no wonder little ones fell out (heat, over crowding...)
We are going with new gourds in 2023. Not too sure the number though, such is life...
We have nice galvanized poles here. We are thinking fabricating a two tier rack system (4 gourd racks per level) with a sleeve in between and pulley/winch system. does that make sense?
Probably should be made of aluminum for weight issues too
We have access to nice machine shop equipment etc. The more DIY the gourd rack lowering system is, the more funds will remain for gourd purchases. Luckily martins wont care if it looks homemade
Keeping all of that in mind here we go with questions:
can anyone help us with distance between the gourds, since we cant have the gourds banging together with a slight breeze. LOL Dont think the martins would like that
we were thinking it depends on the gourd you choose? Hoping to have 3 gourds per gourd rack/arm
So then we thought well, we can order 2 gourds to work on the system & make sure the 2 dont "clunk" together, and then that brings us to more questions, here we go:
Looked Troyer products but only see they offer conley ii entrance and that might cause this group of martins used to round holes, to abandon the site... That is a deal breaker
Alright moving along, looked at Excluder gourds with crescents, then started seeing that wing entrapment happens with crescents? Aye-yi-yi its always something
Then I see on PMCA store they sell these little plastic arches that you put above the crescent opening to help alleviate wing entrapment. Messaged PMCA to ask if the excluder gourd has anything built in to prohibit wing entrapment but no reply yet
To summarize the questions
How far apart are the gourds on the arm, or rack, on which they hang?
Does anyone know if excluder gourds have a bumper, or lip, molded in to prevent wing entrapment?

Random chatting:
The martins all fledged out of their gourds here
Last Thursday evening we were out by the pond. About 8:10 it began raining, and saw 2 martins chirping and entered the same gourd. 8:40 another martin went into a gourd
Last Friday around 8 pm, no rain, watched 2 martins go into the same gourd as the night before.
Every day see 8 to 12 martins flying over the property. Not that I want them to leave, but I am curious when they migrate. I did read leave your gourds up through August
Really curious how many gourds have nests. But oh well, I guess that will be the September surprise.

Really appreciate anyone weighing in on all of this. Less than 4 weeks ago, we had jumpers on the ground, and didnt know what to do, so of course, you go to the internet and search your problem...
Imagine how we felt when we learned people lower gourds, unscrew caps to access the nest, kept records & could determine where jumper came from.

[C.C.Martins]

Only two new gourds to start 2023 with? Did I read that right?

Any gourd you get, either troyer or excluder gourd is a good gourd. I have both. Dont worry about entrances, wing entrapment, and get too caught up in that mess....yet. others may disagree but I think that can be tackled off season. your decision to start on gourds is a good one. Id also suggest a 1 for 1 swap....or better yet two old ones for a new one...or three for one.
Dont go with round holes, I think the starlings that are no doubt in your area won't accept those small gourds.

Iv a delux gourd rack, gourds are relatively close....within 5 inches of one another (big fat natural gourds for the most part) but they do not hit each other in the wind. Keep the spacing out to about a foot and you will be ok.

I couldnt picture your gourds in your first post, now iv a clearer picture. Do your best to save money in the gourd rack/pole and spend it on gourds, got 6 troyer gourds coming cost is less than 200 bucks. I don't want to be too brutal but those gourds are pretty bad sir.

When you get your gourds, there some small things to do, but we can help with all that.
Tom

[amethyst.aviators]

Hi Tom,
Oh no, I am sorry if I didnt explain this well.
Thinking if I just had my hands on 2 of the gourds (that i've yet to select from all the ones out there) then when working on my brackets, I could hang them on it, just to check the distance between them to avoid clunking.
I am thinking I will buy 36 to 48 gourds, but I have yet to decide. I am trying to figure out the costs of metal, winches, pole protectors etc (all items except gourds) see how I can swing that.
When that dust settles the remainder of budget will go to gourds. That is the motivation on the DIY gourd lowering system, it permits more funds for gourds which really seem to the be the necessity.
Our goal is 2 poles with 24 gourds per pole. 3 gourds per bracket (if I knew the hanging distance, I'd then know how long those gourds arms/racks/brackets need to be) with 8 brackets per pole (two tiers of 4 brackets)

I now understand these gourds are bad. I had no idea at first. I didnt know what purple martins were before I bought the property. The man who sold this to us, was sort of gushing about them and I said, OK, we'll keep them here, and we'll put up a feeder for them. He informed us that they eat bugs. Then well all chaos happened in later June, I start reading and it becomes clear, I have a mess. So we are just focusing on the future and how to correct it. We have work to do. I hate to lean on people for help but I am going to post questions here. I checked that mentor list on PMCA and there is nobody near us. However, these problems can be worked out on this forum.

I am not sure what is going on with this little arc shaped crescent entrance "bumper' protector to help reduce wing entrapment. I am thinking the crescent entrance needs this?

BTW I counted wrong. I have 56 gourds. Ok, I dont always walk to the pond, it hotter than Hades out there. Pond pole has 32 gourds (8 brackets, over 2 tiers, 4 gourds each) and the "woods" pole has 24
Dumb me was sitting here thinking 36 at the pond and 24 at the "woods" pole Then a really terrible looking pole, its wood, missing gourds, gourds look atrocious it might have 12. I dont see any bird going in a gourd there, but they perch on top of it.

Thank you, helping us will help martins. I just saw about 2 dozen all happy at the pond maybe 1 hour ago.

[C.C.Martins]

Ok! Its the remoteness of the internet, translation gets lost. My bad.
Good thinking on the hanging piece. Troyer gourds are narrow, the Excluder gourds are a heck of alot wider....no help I know when it comes to spacing. Your right, when you have them in hand and actually get them up you will see.
If this helps, excluder gourds swing or rock front to back, Troyer gourds side to side BUT each can be modified to be stationary. I do not like a gourd that swings, just me...iv modified mine a bit to take alot of that out.

I think those gourds you have now are probably all over the place, once you see how either of the choices you make in action your clunking worries will be over.

The troyers have a built in wing entrapment. Lots of folks put a plastic crescent (commonly referred to as a WEP) over the excluder crescent entrance to act as a wing entrapment protector and dual purpose starling resistant entrance.

Yours is an old enough colony that you could very well introduce many new gourds and they will be accepted. To be safe, and cost effective, replace half. Keep the others up and watch close, ill be willing to wager a bunch they accept quickly.

You do have your work cut out but start where you can. Martins will be back, and we all really like to help you and your colony be sucessful.

Not everyone who has martins are active here, perhaps when your out and about driving peer into back yards and look for martin houses or gourds then just knock. If its fertile ground they will talk your ears off.

The forum is a rather quiet place now, been a very hard year in Texas....probably don't want to talk at the moment and season is over for a bunch of folks.
Tom

A PS: go out on a limb, buy one PMCA excluder gourd with crescents and one Troyer gourd with Conley II entrances. See how you like them. Problem with purple martins are....well, you will fall in love with them and next thing you know you have three systems up and start planning on clearing more land for more systems. Haha

[Jones4381]

Looking forward to following your journey. There are many masters in here that are giving you sound suggestions and apprentices like me too that needs to listen twice as much as I type, so I'll follow, watch, and learn from your experiences and others good suggestions. My only advice which, sounds like your already practicing, is engross yourselves into it completely and become a lover of the relationships you'll receive from it.

I have nest #4 fledging today as those youngsters are ready...For me I'm heading out to the garden to sit, watch, and listen as It's my favorite time; early AM. It's peacefully quiet with only sounds of the Martins gliding softly overhead with their songs (down to 9 or 10 in the AM) but the neighbors should show up by 8ish and the temporary population will grow to 20+ as they are as excited as me to witness and aid that first flight to the mighty oaks and then onto high in the sky. Coffee, solitude, sounds, and thoughts are my early AM respite today.

Good for you and Welcome to the message board neighbor.