I have had multiple nest fledge over the past couple of days. If only 40 to 50% of the young actually make it through migration, its no wonder to me that only 10% come back to their birth site! From the second they leave the nest they are constantly harassed by the entire colony.
From what I have seen, a beat down would be an under statement, even when they try to return to roost for the night, they are treated like red headed step children (no fun intended) I think if I were treated like that when I flew the coupe and made it back next year to nest, I would probably try to fly around the state I was raised in!
I"m sure in the bird world there's probably a good explanation for this behavior, but I can't help to feel sorry for the little fellows.
If anyone knows the reason behind this, would you please share your knowledge? I'm just curious.
Thanks Kevin
No wonder it's only 10%
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eyeamtheman
- Posts: 633
- Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2003 3:21 pm
- Location: Quitman, La
- Martin Colony History: Super colony
It's unfortunate that this happens, but it always does, there's not a clear reason why, other than it's just in their nature to harrass any vulnerable martins they can find. They are ruthless somewhat in my colony as well, and some get beat down to the ground. It's especially bad on the fledglings that have become lost from their parents, which dooms them to the point it's unlikely they survive. The subadult males are the main culprit and unmated ones are especially troublesome. Good luck.
Johnny
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John Miller
- Posts: 4866
- Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 9:11 pm
- Location: St. Louis, MO
Hi Kevin
Fledging?! I just got my first babies.
You know, I don't see the harassment as much as some people report. I wonder if it's worse in the south because fledging occurs earlier, and the SY males are still potentially seeking to claim cavities?
Our fledging usually begins late June and all through July in St Louis, but I'm not ready to think about it (grin); we just got started. ahem..but when it occurs, one can travel through the park and see fledglings gathered in little groups high in many trees on dead limbs. They all disperse across the park - that probably helps reduce harassment too.
John M
Fledging?! I just got my first babies.
You know, I don't see the harassment as much as some people report. I wonder if it's worse in the south because fledging occurs earlier, and the SY males are still potentially seeking to claim cavities?
Our fledging usually begins late June and all through July in St Louis, but I'm not ready to think about it (grin); we just got started. ahem..but when it occurs, one can travel through the park and see fledglings gathered in little groups high in many trees on dead limbs. They all disperse across the park - that probably helps reduce harassment too.
John M
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Emil Pampell-Tx
- Posts: 6743
- Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2003 1:26 pm
- Location: Tx, Richmond (SW of Houston)
- Martin Colony History: First started in Gretna, La in 1969 with a small homemade house, have had martins ever since at 2 different homes in Texas
It may not be harassment, it may be that the parents of another cavity are trying to protect their babies, trying to keep out the fledgling intruders. The fledglings don't always land at their own cavity.
I have an opinion, I will give it. Forever until the last 200 years, the martins nested in the wild. Their nests probably were separated by a great distance. The martins want the space, they don't want another pair real close in most cases. They learn to put up with each other as the season progresses. But overall, this harassment is occuring because the nests are too close to each other.
When many people first start with gourds, they put up a pole, and nail 2 boards to that pole, and hang 4 gourds, this was common many years ago. The gourds were about 4 or 5 feet apart. I saw very few problems at such a site, so I think that the martins like to have some space for themselves only..
Of course today its different, we crowd them often 12 to 24 cavities on one house, or sometimes 30 or 40 gourds on a gourd rack. That is way too many, so the harassment occurs. Due to appearance, and cost, we cannot supply housing at the ideal spacing.
I have an opinion, I will give it. Forever until the last 200 years, the martins nested in the wild. Their nests probably were separated by a great distance. The martins want the space, they don't want another pair real close in most cases. They learn to put up with each other as the season progresses. But overall, this harassment is occuring because the nests are too close to each other.
When many people first start with gourds, they put up a pole, and nail 2 boards to that pole, and hang 4 gourds, this was common many years ago. The gourds were about 4 or 5 feet apart. I saw very few problems at such a site, so I think that the martins like to have some space for themselves only..
Of course today its different, we crowd them often 12 to 24 cavities on one house, or sometimes 30 or 40 gourds on a gourd rack. That is way too many, so the harassment occurs. Due to appearance, and cost, we cannot supply housing at the ideal spacing.
PMCA Member, 250 gourds, 6 poles, 2traps
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Steve Kroenke
- Posts: 4342
- Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2003 6:49 pm
- Location: Louisiana/Logansport
The harassment of purple martin fledglings is largely a male thing. As soon as a fledgling flies, a gang of males, both ASY and SY often start attacking the baby. The males attack the baby’s back area and simulate copulation. If the males can knock the fledgling to the ground or to some other stable location, the males will often copulate with the baby. I have seen it happen MANY times and have photos of a gang of SY males assaulting a fledgling they forced down on my roof. The copulation action is not one of procreation but possibly of forced dispersal and domination. But no one really knows why male martins would copulate with martin fledglings when such fledglings are not sexually mature. The copulation action may just be one of showing power/domination over a weaker individual.
Gangs of males can cause fledgling martins to become separated from their parents and lost when the fledgling is knocked down in thick vegetation or thickets. Non-parental male martins are NO friends of recent martin fledglings. Recently a few martin pairs have fledged their young in my colony and non-parental ASY and SY males pounced on the fledglings the moment they left the nests. I watched these males try to “ride the backs” of the poor fledglings and in some cases knock the babies almost to the ground. One SY male straddled a fledgling above the treetops and rode the youngster almost all the way to ground before releasing his victim.
The parental male martin is a fierce defender of his offspring against the attacks by other males. I have seen these parent males viciously attack SY and ASY males that were already mounting fledglings and simulating copulation. The parent males often attack any other males that get near their fledglings that are perched in trees at family assembly sites or when the parents are escorting their young in flight.
Male martins may also attack martin fledglings in an attempt to force them to go elsewhere and not possibly offer competition next year for cavities/mates and perhaps reduce the chances for inbreeding. I doubt male martins can distinguish between male and female fledglings because I see nearly ALL fledglings attacked and harassed by non-parental males.
Female martins don’t copulate with fledglings and I have not seen packs of females attack fledglings in flight like the gangs of males. However, if a non-related fledgling tries to enter the cavity of a female martin with young, she may savagely attack the youngster and try to force him/her away. Why? The female does not need another youngster to feed and he/she does not belong to her family.
A martin colony is not comparable to a lion pride where the females are related and take care of each other’s cubs. Martins view other martins as competitors and other martins’ babies as intruders.
In the evenings at roosting time, the fledglings are often attacked by both male and female martins when the fledglings try to enter the cavities of resident martins. Again, these fledglings do not belong to these martins’ family and are treated like intruders. The parents of the fledglings will bring these youngsters back to their natal nests to roost.
Here are some photos of SY males attacking a lone fledgling they forced down on my house roof. The SY males grabbed the fledgling by the back of the neck, mounted him/her, and then copulated just like they would with a female. Notice how the fledgling assumes a submissive posture. This is simulated copulation and possibly relates more to domination/power over a weaker individual. Other flock/herd male birds/mammals will mount weaker males in a show of domination. Domestic bovids and the African buffalo show the same behavior. A dominate bull will often mount a weaker one and simulate copulation in a show of power over his rival.
This photo shows a SY male preparing to assault a fledging that was forced down on the roof of my house. Notice the fledgling assuming an almost submissive posture.
This photos show a SY male mounting and copulating with the fledgling. The SY male grabbed the fledgling by the back of the neck and straddled him/her.
This photo shows another SY male assaulting the youngster.
Gangs of males can cause fledgling martins to become separated from their parents and lost when the fledgling is knocked down in thick vegetation or thickets. Non-parental male martins are NO friends of recent martin fledglings. Recently a few martin pairs have fledged their young in my colony and non-parental ASY and SY males pounced on the fledglings the moment they left the nests. I watched these males try to “ride the backs” of the poor fledglings and in some cases knock the babies almost to the ground. One SY male straddled a fledgling above the treetops and rode the youngster almost all the way to ground before releasing his victim.
The parental male martin is a fierce defender of his offspring against the attacks by other males. I have seen these parent males viciously attack SY and ASY males that were already mounting fledglings and simulating copulation. The parent males often attack any other males that get near their fledglings that are perched in trees at family assembly sites or when the parents are escorting their young in flight.
Male martins may also attack martin fledglings in an attempt to force them to go elsewhere and not possibly offer competition next year for cavities/mates and perhaps reduce the chances for inbreeding. I doubt male martins can distinguish between male and female fledglings because I see nearly ALL fledglings attacked and harassed by non-parental males.
Female martins don’t copulate with fledglings and I have not seen packs of females attack fledglings in flight like the gangs of males. However, if a non-related fledgling tries to enter the cavity of a female martin with young, she may savagely attack the youngster and try to force him/her away. Why? The female does not need another youngster to feed and he/she does not belong to her family.
A martin colony is not comparable to a lion pride where the females are related and take care of each other’s cubs. Martins view other martins as competitors and other martins’ babies as intruders.
In the evenings at roosting time, the fledglings are often attacked by both male and female martins when the fledglings try to enter the cavities of resident martins. Again, these fledglings do not belong to these martins’ family and are treated like intruders. The parents of the fledglings will bring these youngsters back to their natal nests to roost.
Here are some photos of SY males attacking a lone fledgling they forced down on my house roof. The SY males grabbed the fledgling by the back of the neck, mounted him/her, and then copulated just like they would with a female. Notice how the fledgling assumes a submissive posture. This is simulated copulation and possibly relates more to domination/power over a weaker individual. Other flock/herd male birds/mammals will mount weaker males in a show of domination. Domestic bovids and the African buffalo show the same behavior. A dominate bull will often mount a weaker one and simulate copulation in a show of power over his rival.
This photo shows a SY male preparing to assault a fledging that was forced down on the roof of my house. Notice the fledgling assuming an almost submissive posture.
This photos show a SY male mounting and copulating with the fledgling. The SY male grabbed the fledgling by the back of the neck and straddled him/her.
This photo shows another SY male assaulting the youngster.
PMCA Member
300+ pairs of martins each season
300+ pairs of martins each season
This relates to a question that came up last night while out watching our flock after nest checks.
I have 39 eggs in 10 of 12 gourds and I expect around 50 eggs or so for the season.
Now, when those babies fledge, problems are going to arise.
Our thought was to put up more housing before they fledge and give those babies somewhere "safe" to go.
Any thoughts???
Allen
Monroe, MI
I have 39 eggs in 10 of 12 gourds and I expect around 50 eggs or so for the season.
Now, when those babies fledge, problems are going to arise.
Our thought was to put up more housing before they fledge and give those babies somewhere "safe" to go.
Any thoughts???
Allen
Monroe, MI
When mine got close the fledging stage, I thought I had it made.
However, I have had more dead fledgings than I ever remember.
I have never noticed them being this mean before.
I think that the casualty rate (at least in our colony) is pretty high this year after they start fledging. I find one or two dead everyday.
Between the jumpers who are not nearly ready to fledge and the older ones maybe leaving the nest just a day or two too early, I can see why the mortality rate is so high.
James
However, I have had more dead fledgings than I ever remember.
I have never noticed them being this mean before.
I think that the casualty rate (at least in our colony) is pretty high this year after they start fledging. I find one or two dead everyday.
Between the jumpers who are not nearly ready to fledge and the older ones maybe leaving the nest just a day or two too early, I can see why the mortality rate is so high.
James
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DebA
- Posts: 1941
- Joined: Tue May 04, 2010 7:43 am
- Location: Pratt County/Kansas
- Martin Colony History: Start 2009 with one pair. Upgraded from S&K houses to two Trendsetter 12's with gourds beneath in 2013. I have experienced job, pet, and parental losses since '13. The Purple Martins lift my spirits and remind me how life continues forward by flying their little selves from Brazil back to my yard. As one forum person once told me, chin up DebA, look at the martins. Danger all around but yet they soar in the sky without a care in the world.
This is my third year and I haven't witnessed that harassment. It may have occurred, I just haven't see it. Yet. My colony is small and I wonder if it is harder on them in the large ones. Reading the descriptions on the forum of the fights, rapes of females and then fledglings, makes me sad. Although I do get it that it is their way apparently. If fledglings are treated like this maybe that is why they come back as a pain to others their second year.
Deb
2011 3 ASY pairs, 1 SY pair, 1 SY male; 5 babies so far
2010 1 ASY pair, 1 SY pair; each fledged 3
2009 1 ASY pair, fledged 2
Deb
2011 3 ASY pairs, 1 SY pair, 1 SY male; 5 babies so far
2010 1 ASY pair, 1 SY pair; each fledged 3
2009 1 ASY pair, fledged 2