Using Asphalt Roofing Shingles With Sub-floors

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Steve Kroenke
Posts: 4342
Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2003 6:49 pm
Location: Louisiana/Logansport

Using Asphalt Roofing Shingles With Sub-floors In Aluminum Houses

In my aluminum purple martin houses, heavy prolonged rainfall may intrude into the compartments and wet the nesting material. I have seen this happen particularly in my Trio houses with flip-up door panels because there are open slots between the door and floor. This can also occur with any house where the door panels are separate and can be opened to inspect the compartments. My Sunset Inns have removable door panels and rainwater can seep under the panels and invade the nesting area. Rainwater hits the porch, then seeps under the door panel and eventually wicks up into the nesting material.

Probably the best way to minimize or prevent most rainwater saturation of nests in aluminum houses is to use nest trays. Nest trays isolate the nests and keep them off the compartment floors which can become wet. I use nest trays in my two Trendsetter houses and these trays have kept the nests dry for the most part.

Trio offers aluminum sub-floors which are placed on the compartment floors and the sub-floor attempts to elevate the nest ABOVE any rainwater that seeps into the nesting area. The sub-floors do have holes to allow any rainwater that may blow through the entrance holes to drain out. I have used these sub-floors and they do help but the nests can still become drenched and water may wick up from the compartment floor through the drain holes in the sub-floors.

For the Sunset Inn houses, there are wiremesh sub-floors that can be placed in the compartments to provide a better foundation for nests and eliminate splay leg syndrome for nestlings. If a small nestling rests on bare slick metal, the nestling may develop deformities in its legs due to constant slipping. Also the wiremesh helps keep the nesting material off the compartment floor where rainwater may seep in. These wiremesh sub-floors will fit in the Trendsetter houses too, but there are specially made nest trays that are probably more appropriate.

I recently purchased from the PMCA 24 new nest trays for my two 12 room Trendsetters and enough wiremesh sub-floors for the 16 compartments in my two re-built Sunset Inns which had been severely damaged by the April 26, 2011 storm. The wiremesh sub-floors have been greatly improved over some of the first ones I had. The new wiremesh sub-floors are made from relatively thick black metal and don’t have any sharp points. I like them a lot.

For a number of years I have been using asphalt roofing shingles in conjunction with any sub-floors in my various aluminum houses where I don’t have nest trays. In the past I have even used the shingles without any sub-floors in several of my Lone Star Goliad houses.

These shingles serve several purposes. First, the shingle has a coarse surface and this may provide a better platform for nesting material and helps keep it from spreading apart. Nesting material easily separates on a slick metal surface as the female martin creates her nest bowl. This may result in eggs/babies resting on slick bare metal.

Second, the shingles can be easily cut to fit over any sub-floor, including the Trio metal one and the Sunset Inn meshwire floor. The shingle helps to keep rainwater from wicking up underneath any sub-floor with drainage holes or a completely open one like the wiremesh.

In my Trio M-12s, the compartments are enlarged to 6” x12”. I simply place two Trio metal sub-floors in the compartment and then place a piece of asphalt shingle that fits nicely over both. The shingle keeps the Trio sub-floors from coming up and prevents most rainwater that seeps underneath the sub-floors from wicking up through the drainage holes into the nest. However, I still have some problems with heavy rainwater blowing through the entrance hole and drenching the nest. But I believe the shingles have worked in conjunction with the Trio sub-floors to minimize saturation of the nests under most situations. And the rustic surface of the shingles helps keep the nesting material from sliding apart.

For my Sunset Inns, the wiremesh sub-floors fit somewhat loosely inside the compartments so that it is easy to remove them as necessary. There is about a ¼ of inch of distance between the wiremesh and floor. Any rainwater that seeps in would flow under the wiremesh and not contact with the nest. However, any nesting material that protrudes through the wiremesh and touches the compartment floor may still wick any moisture up into the nest.

Just like with the Trio sub-floors, I place appropriately sized asphalt shingles over the wiremesh and this action blocks any rainwater from wicking up underneath. Of course, some rainwater can still blow through the entrance hole, but this water would be confined to a smaller area not directly in the nest bowl.

Asphalt roofing shingles are easy to cut and I use large tin snips. You could use a knife or other cutting instrument. I simply cut out a shingle to match the dimensions of any sub-floor I am using. For my Sunset Inn wiremesh sub-floors, I generally cut the shingles a little larger to cover as much of compartment floor area as possible.

Using asphalt roofing shingles with various sub-floors or even alone may help to minimize nesting material from spreading apart because of the coarse shingle surface. On slick metal, nesting material may not stay together and when the female martin creates her nest bowl, the material may slide around. This can leave bare metal in the nest bowl where the eggs are laid.

And asphalt roofing shingles when placed over sub-floors can help prevent rainwater from wicking up through any drainage hole or open areas into the nest. However, during blowing rains or prolonged deluges, rainwater may still enter the entrance holes and drench nesting material in that immediate area. But in many situations, the shingles may help keep the nests drier.

Here are some photos of an asphalt shingle being used on top of a wiremesh sub-floor in a compartment of one of my Sunset Inns.

This photo shows a PMCA wiremesh sub-floor inside the compartment of one of my Sunset Inns. This is an improved model over the earlier one. The wiremesh is thick and coated with a black enamel like substance.

Image

This photo shows an asphalt roofing shingle cut to fit over the wiremesh sub-floor. I made the shingle a little larger than the sub-floor to provide more coverage.

Image

This photo shows a pre-nest of pine needles constructed on top of the shingle. I made this nest before we had nearly two days of heavy rains. After the rains, I check the nest and it was largely dry except for a little moisture in the pine needles in front of the nest hole. Apparently some rain managed to blow through the entrance, but it did not completely saturate the nest.

Image

Steve
PMCA Member
300+ pairs of martins each season
dsonyay
Posts: 1677
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2010 3:10 pm
Location: Louisiana/Broussard
Martin Colony History: 2010-2014 located in Slidell LA. Gourd rack with 16 gourds. Max of 2 pairs during this short period in Slidell. Plenty of fledglings.

2014-present.. moved to Broussard LA. Same Gourd Rack but added a 6 room house (modified from a 12 room)

2020: after a long drought of nothing, 4 pairs and 4 nests, 23 eggs total.
6 fledges.

2021: 9 pair, 47 eggs
36 hatchlings
30 fledged

2022: about 12 pairs.. many eggs, all fledged.. only had one hatchling die.. probably because of our schnauzer. :(

2023: 16 pairs. So far about 60 chicks with about a dozen eggs to go.

2024: 13 pair. About 60 eggs
2025: 14 pairs .. 69 eggs.

i like your idea. good job :)
RC Moser
Posts: 1546
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2003 3:25 am

Steve, Bravo! neat! neat! and neatO! don 't look to costly either? that wire mesh look like it will make excellent drainage! what type of wire mesh material did you use and where did you get it if I may ask. Got headache right now having hard time reading ( and as usually typing) maybe I overlooked type of material the wire mesh came from and were you got it? Pleaz elaborate some!?
John Miller
Posts: 4866
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 9:11 pm
Location: St. Louis, MO

These Sunsets do sheet water across, and I've used the shingles, but I one upped the concept some. I took a length of quarter round moulding the width of the shingle and stapled in on top (staples from the bottom) midway to create a mini nest tray front. Seemed to further help hold the nest in place.
dsonyay
Posts: 1677
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2010 3:10 pm
Location: Louisiana/Broussard
Martin Colony History: 2010-2014 located in Slidell LA. Gourd rack with 16 gourds. Max of 2 pairs during this short period in Slidell. Plenty of fledglings.

2014-present.. moved to Broussard LA. Same Gourd Rack but added a 6 room house (modified from a 12 room)

2020: after a long drought of nothing, 4 pairs and 4 nests, 23 eggs total.
6 fledges.

2021: 9 pair, 47 eggs
36 hatchlings
30 fledged

2022: about 12 pairs.. many eggs, all fledged.. only had one hatchling die.. probably because of our schnauzer. :(

2023: 16 pairs. So far about 60 chicks with about a dozen eggs to go.

2024: 13 pair. About 60 eggs
2025: 14 pairs .. 69 eggs.

Only thing I thought of would be if holes could be drilled into the shingle to allow moisture to escape if any came in from above.

Also- is there any toxic concerns with the shingle? I wouldn't think martins would ingest any of it- just asking.

Nice writeup and photos. Would make a good Sticky for the forum.
~Ray~Gingerich
Posts: 2122
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 10:24 pm
Location: Delaware/Dover

David, that's the same question I have, those shingles curl a little in cooler weather and with a cold blowing rain drain holes would be good. I have always felt the trio sub floors are too shallow and need more separation from the bottom, shingles on top of the subfloors would provide that.
~Ray~ Gingerich
1999 1pair, 2006 2 pair, 2008 2 pair,
2009 23 pair, 2010 39 pair, 2011 67 pair,
2012 115 pair, 2013 160 pair,
2014 152 pair, 2015 174 pair, 2016 178 pair
2017 187 pair, 2018 200 pair, 2019 171pair
2020 233 pair
tonyg
Posts: 1520
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 4:16 pm
Location: Olpe, KS
Martin Colony History: 22 year landlord, 14 at current residence..offering 9 racks and a homemade T-8 for 166 total cavities. 160 Pair in 2018 Racks consist of a Deluxe 12, AAA 16, Starburst 16, 2 K-18 Series, Super 24, 2 Gemini, Multi-purpose/two trio’s/4gourds and a T-8..Great hobby to be involved in..

Steve, would using the asphalt shingle heat up the compartments any more on a mid summer day? Or would the temps be the same with or without them? Thanks, Tony.
22 year landlord..9 Rack Systems for 2018 and my home built T-8 for a total of 166 cavities..160 pair in 2018 ..SUPER COLONY!!! Love You Bev... Fan of those St. Louis Cardinals!!!!!
Steve Kroenke
Posts: 4342
Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2003 6:49 pm
Location: Louisiana/Logansport

RC,

I bought the wiremesh sub-floors from the PMCA and you can look at this item in their online store. The wire is thick with the black "enamel" coating. I like it a lot for sub-floors. I don't know if you can find a similar product at any home improvement store.

Steve,

John,

I have thought about adding some kind of "barrier" or "border" to divide the shingle and create a type of nest tray. The coarse asphalt surface does help to keep the nesting material together, but martins can still push it all over the place! The asphalt shingle surface reminds me somewhat of the bottom of a natural gourd with its rustic substrate. Thanks for sharing your idea.

Steve

David,

Yes, you could easily put holes in the shingle to create some drainage holes. Most rainwater that gets on top of the shingle seems to run off. But when all the nesting becomes packed down later in the season, particularly any dirt, then moisture could stay longer.

I am not aware of any toxic issues with the shingles. Since the nesting material would cover the shingles, I doubt the martins would have much contact with the surface. The nesting material would hopefully keep any "loose shingle particles" from being ingested.

Thanks for the comments.

Steve

Ray,

So far I haven't noticed any of the shingles curling up. Maybe since I build pre-nests on top of them, the nests help to "hold down" any tendency to curl up during cooler weather. Down in the Deep South, we don't have super cold weather usually and that may be the reason!

I agree with you about the Trio metal sub-floors. They really need to provide more clearance between themselves and the compartment floors. I did start "double-stacking" them in my Trio Castle to provide more distance between the compartment floors and the sub-floors. This did help to keep the nests drier during heavy rains which allowed a lot of water to flow under the door panels.

Steve

Tony,

Since the shingles would be for the most part out of direct sunlight and have nesting material covering them, I believe the shingles would not heat up that much during hot weather. I have checked nests with the shingles during hot weather and haven't noticed any heat issues with the shingles. But I didn't record any temperatures. So hopefully the "blanket" of nesting material and having the shingles out of the direct sunlight for the most part will minimize any heat issues.

Steve
PMCA Member
300+ pairs of martins each season
e p jones
Posts: 91
Joined: Thu Nov 13, 2003 7:41 pm
Location: Cincinnati

Steve:

For some time we have very successfully used wire mesh subfloors in our gourds--cut circular.

They are hand made from 1/4" galvanized hardware cloth--available at most hardware stores in rolls (also called hail- or rabbit-screen).

We size the circles large enough that the edges contact the sides of the gourds partly up the wall (about 9" for Naturelines); a cardboard pattern is used to mark the cutting line.

Then the edges are covered with either electrician or duct tape.

The middle of the mesh is "pulled down" and held in place with a small piece of wire run thru the drain holes; this does 2 things--makes a nice concave nest bowl and keeps the nest tray from tipping up and potentially blocking the entrance.

The circles are temporarily folded (like a taco) to allow them to be inserted thru the entrance or capped access port.

On rectangular nest cavities, the 4 edges of each "oversized" nest tray are simply folded down at right angles to provide 4-sided support and elevation.

For weight conservation, we have not added shingles but will give that a try.
Steve Kroenke
Posts: 4342
Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2003 6:49 pm
Location: Louisiana/Logansport

I have not tried any kind of sub-floors in my plastic gourds. I have so far been successful with using pine needles to create thick pre-nests which hold pretty good in my Super Gourds, Excluder Gourds and Troyer Gourds.

I have used soften pine needles that I got from a country road where trucks have driven over the needles. These needles are relatively easy to fashion into pre-nests that hold together.

I also use "dampened" pine needles. I have collected pine needles after rains or during foggy/humid mornings. These needles are easier to form into pre-nests and hold their shape after the needles dry out. I also have "dipped" pine needles into water to dampen them and this works, too. I don't use heavily waterlogged pine needles, just wet ones. Pine needles tend to dry out quickly.

The wiremesh sub-floors in plastic gourds would help to keep the nests off the plastic gourd bottom and keep the nests drier. Plus the wiremesh would probably provide a good foundation to keep the nesting material from "sliding around" which can occur on slick plastic.

Thanks for sharing your idea of wiremesh sub-floors in plastic gourds.

Steve
PMCA Member
300+ pairs of martins each season
Keith
Posts: 435
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 2:45 pm
Location: Missouri/Ava
Martin Colony History: 85 pair in 2020. Seems fairly consistent the last few years.

Steve, or anyone else here,
I'm not sure what is in the composition of roofing shingles, tar or whatever, but could it also be a deterrant to parasite issues? Maybe I am thinking off the wall or this is just wishful thinking.
Keith
Guest

This sounds like a good idea. I have an old Trio Grandpa converted to 6 units and a Castle with 12 units. I got the nest trays for both of them, but I agree there's not that much clearance between them and the floor. I also happen to have leftover shingles from building my house. Should the shingles be placed under or over the nest trays? Thks!
Steve Kroenke
Posts: 4342
Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2003 6:49 pm
Location: Louisiana/Logansport

Keith,

I have no information about any possible anti-parasite attributes of asphalt shingles. I even tried to research this on the Internet. I did find where some shingles may deter algae/moss from growing for awhile. But I found nothing else.

Steve

Bonnie,

I place the shingles on top of the Trio sub-floors and they may help out. But heavy rain with wind can still blow through the entrance holes. That could probably happen with any type of house. So you may still get some wet area near the entrance. Again, the shingles may still keep any water that flows under the sub-floors from wicking up into any nesting material.

Steve
PMCA Member
300+ pairs of martins each season
Roymg
Posts: 135
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 12:05 pm
Location: Covngton, La

dsonyay wrote:i like your idea. good job :)
I used a piece of styfoam about 3/8" tk. cut to fit but they seem to want to peck at it so I covered it in duct tape. That seemed to work.
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