Venting gourds

[Rupert]

We are located in north Florida, and it does get very hot I have been following the discussion on PVC elbows and was wondering if there is anything wrong with placing the elbow into the inspection cap? The angle and height seem to be right and if I make a mistake, I replace the cap. What do you think ?

[Guest]

Ive seen that done but usually they are a bit low,to be the most effective put then as high as you can.

dick

[KathyF]

Rupert, funny you ask - that's what I'm in the process of doing right now! I'm putting them in the caps for my Troyer horizontal gourds. If you spin the cap on and orient the vent at the top, it will be a lot higher than mounting the vents in the back. I agree with you - if you mess up, then you can put on another cap.

[Allan Day]

I just finished venting all my gourds this Winter, I followed directions from another post and I'm very pleased with the result. However, I was thinking the same thing, the gourd cap is a great place to put the venting. In my opinion, the cross airflow is more important than the height of the vent. I think it would work fine.
I do agree that in a perfect scenario, the higher the better. But just being vented at all is the most important issue.

[Scott D.- La]

Top dead center is the optimum spot however, your not limited by one either and could add several high around the neck of the gourd. Mine are located top dead center but I am willing to make such modification's and realize other's may not want to risk messing up their gourd's.

[John Miller]

I sometimes put the elbows in lids, mostly as an adjunct to one up in the neck on a vertical gourd, because I originally put ones in the neck I thought too small. I've mostly settled on one inch vents (inside diameter) now, but smaller probably would be adequate further north. I started with the dinky half-inch ones, then gained confidence and got bigger...

Just be sure to resist the tendency to use the elbow as a handle to screw off the lid or the elbo itself may start to turn and break the seal.

John M

[Kathy in VA]

Rupert, congratulations to you for being a proactive landlord and wanting to help your martins stay cooler in the heat. I too had considered putting PVC elbows on access caps. But after analyzing it for a long time and reading lots of Forum posts on heat, I decided not to install them in the access caps, and I’ll explain why. I prefer to put the elbows as high as possible, in the upper neck of the gourd (on vertical gourds) and high on the sides of horizontal gourds. You didn’t mention whether your caps screw on, or snap on, but if someone uses screw-on caps, here are some things to consider...

I have a mixture of SuperGourds, Troyer Horizontals, and Troyer Verticals. All of the caps screw on and are interchangeable; but if I put elbows on them, they would no longer be interchangeable. At the end of the season, I throw all the caps in a bucket to soak and wash, and store them indoors loose until I’m ready to fill the gourds with nest material and hang them on the rack in the spring. I never have to worry about keeping the same cap with the same exact gourd. Although all of the caps will fit onto all of the ports (access holes) of those different styles of gourds, they don’t orient themselves in the same direction when they are tightened. The top doesn’t always stay at the top. If I put a cap on one gourd and install a PVC ventilation elbow at the top of the cap, pointing it downward to keep rain out, when I screw that cap onto different gourds, the elbow sometimes ends up being upside-down when the cap is fully tight—the elbow may end up at the bottom of the access hole, pointing upwards to catch and funnel rain inside the gourd! Or pointing sideways. Not good. Sometimes the cap orientation changes even when the same lid is screwed onto the same gourd, but on a different day. (That’s why I also decided not to put Gourd ID numbers on the cap, but to put them on the gourd itself—so the numbers will never end up sideways or upside-down.) Cap orientation will change even more if you later decide to add cap liners, or anything that takes up space in-between the cap and the threads (insulation, etc.), because it keeps the cap from screwing down as tightly as it did when you first installed the elbows. If you don’t screw the cap on as tightly as it will go (if you fudge a little by backing off on the tightness of the cap to position the elbow closer to the top), the cap is more likely to come off; and since your colony is so far from your home, you won’t be there to see a blown-off cap lying in the yard; I doubt you would want to risk any caps coming off, exposing the nestlings to the sun and rain.

Also, if a cap cracks and you have to replace it, or if you decide to upgrade to the newer thicker Troyer caps, you will have to do the work all over again to install new ventilation elbows in every replacement cap. I’d rather just do it once, on the gourd, and it’s forever. The older, traditional plastic caps are made of a thinner material than the heavy plastic material that SuperGourds and Troyer gourds are made of, and I would think the caps are more fragile than the thick gourd material, while drilling holes thru them; and there just isn’t much thickness there to grip the elbow; and the elbow glue/caulk-seal will be more likely to get broken loose when handling or getting banged around in a bucket, allowing water to leak inside a gourd. Also, with the added height/bulge of the top half of an elbow labeled ¾” sticking out of the cap, I cannot grip the lid securely; my hand is not large enough to get my fingers wrapped down around the grooved edges of the cap to grip the whole cap firmly enough to tighten the cap or unscrew a cap that’s been screwed on tightly. For me, PVC elbows in the caps would just make using the caps more frustrating and awkward. With ventilation elbows in the gourd neck or side, I never have to deal with them again and never bump them or even notice they are there. Just some things to consider, since you asked for our thoughts. I hope you have a great season!

[KathyF]

I had worried about the vent orientation when screwing on the lid, however, after testing it over 20 times (I have all Troyer horizontal gourds with the new replacement lids), I never once had to re-orient it. It oriented in exactly the same spot every time.

Maybe I just got lucky? Either way, the hesitation of putting the venting directly into the gourds for me was: #1 - MO gets some pretty brutal, cold weather during March into April, and I would then have to plug all the vents; and #2 - I didn't like messing around with the integrity of my gourds and the vents being knocked off during storage.

#2 was less of a concern than #1. Either way, this is my first season with using vented caps - I may change my mind mid-year or next year and have to order 48 replacements.

[rdhd]

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[Dave Duit]

I also vented all my gourds this winter. Many modifications to venting and improvements overall. I think this has been a very busy winter for many on this website with modifications. I wish you the best this year.

[Chriscreole]

go here

http://www.purplemartin.org/forum/viewt ... c&&start=0

[Allan Day]

Chris, I used your method and it worked like a charm. CLEAN, CLEAN CLEAN!
I used the threaded 3/4 elbow. my Excluders, and Troyers look like they came already vented from the factory.

However on my naturals I used 3/4 unthreaded. I was afraid tapping them too tight with the threaded would crack them.

I just got all of 72 of mine up yesterday in anticipation of an early arrival.

Thanks again for your directions Chris.

[Kathy in VA]

My SuperGourds and Troyer vertical gourds currently have a single threaded ½” PVC elbow in the upper neck. I want to increase passive airflow, because last summer we had unusually high temperatures for our area, over 100 degrees for several days at a time; so I am trying to decide whether to just replace the existing single ½” elbow with one ¾” elbow; or enlarge the existing ½” elbow to a ¾” elbow PLUS add a second ¾” elbow on the opposite side of each gourd neck. (I don’t use natural gourds and would not drill two big holes in the neck of a natural.)

Question: Has anyone ever “had a broken neck” on a gourd when using two ¾” PVC elbows (on opposite sides of the neck) on SuperGourds or Troyer Vertical gourds mounted to rigid arms (not freely swinging) while they were on the rack, due to possible reduced strength/integrity of the gourd neck?

[James Rieman]

I am not satified that putting vents in the compartments will be worth the time and effort.

I really wonder about this. I have yet to see any conclusive evidence venting has any significant effect on the internal temperature of the gourds or any other compartment. Maybe it decreases humidity, but I have not seen any evidence it decreases the temperature. Having said this, I will admit to placing 2 3/4 inch vents in each of my Troyer horizontals this winter. I did not vent my T-14 however. I had a discussion with Adam at Bird's Paradise about this, and he informed me tests done in Alabama with the T-14 showed no benefits to venting.

If I am wrong about this and someone can point me to some conclusive evidence venting decreases temperature significantly in a nest cavity, I will gladly admit to my error.

[Emil Pampell-Tx]

Kathy in VA, it depends upon the thickness of the neck. It should not break on an average sized neck. Some of the coke bottle shaped natural gourds have plenty of room for extra ventilation. However, if your gourds have a very thin neck, there is not enough room for extra venting.

I put pvc pipe thru the neck, and try to get the venting above the pvc pipe so the vents don't affect the hanging part. I had one gourd break at the neck due to venting and pvc, but its neck was only about 2in or less, but most gourds are not that narrow.

Another thing that helps is to caulk the pvc very well. I try to get plenty of caulk on the gourd, and on the vent, then shove them together. A joint that is well caulked will not weaken the neck. I don't use the threaded vents, they could put too much pressure on the gourds neck and cause it to break.

[Emil Pampell-Tx]

I am not satified that putting vents in the compartments will be worth the time and effort.

I really wonder about this. I have yet to see any conclusive evidence venting has any significant effect on the internal temperature of the gourds or any other compartment. Maybe it decreases humidity, but I have not seen any evidence it decreases the temperature. .

James, I don't know if it helps (I haven't tested it), but I would rather sit in a well ventilated room than to sit in a closed room on a hot day. In my opinion, elbow vents put about 1/2 way up a gourd does very little good. The vent should be at the highest point on the neck to be the most effective. By placing the vent at the top of a neck, you will draw some breeze with the chimney effect.

For instance, our garage has openings on all 4 sides, and the garage is quite cool on a hot sunny day, and its not insulated. Its cooler in the garage than it is in a closed room in our insulated house. That garage makes me think that ventilation is better than no ventilation.

[Kathy in VA]

Thanks for the replies and information. All the gourds that I’m speaking of are either SuperGourd or Troyer Vertical. They have a uniform, standard neck diameter (2.5" and 3” where the elbows would go), and a standard plastic thickness, about ¼” thick. Last time, I sized the hole that I drilled so the PVC elbow threads would tap threads on the inside of the hole for a secure fit, but it is only a snug fit—not a tight fit with lots of pressure. I wrapped the elbow threads with plumber’s Teflon tape and didn’t even need to caulk them. Emil, thanks for pointing out that too much pressure might cause breakage, and that caulk will add strength. I think I will add caulk just to be safer.

In considering whether adding ventilation to gourds is helpful or worth the time and effort...I haven’t done temperature tests, but I have read many posts on this Forum from landlords who had condensation problems on the inside of the gourds (causing wet nests and unhealthy conditions.) They posted that after they added ventilation, they no longer had a condensation problem. Even if it hasn’t been proven to reduce temperature (and maybe it has; I don’t know), it affects humidity build-up inside the gourd....

I have 3 different styles of gourds and had added a PVC elbow to all of them when I bought them—or so I thought! However, I later bought a new style/shape of gourd to try (since the Forum said martins love variety!), and I overlooked getting a PVC elbow installed on it before hanging it on the rack. It was chosen by a martin pair and they raised a family in it. That was the ONLY gourd that ever developed condensation on the inside of the gourd, and the ONLY gourd that ever felt noticeably hot last summer when I opened it up! (And the only gourd that didn't have any added ventilation.) So that gourd will be getting supplemental ventilation soon! I did add heat shields/sun shades to help reduce the heat. And I had no jumpers, and had a 100% hatch rate (no cooked eggs) and 100% fledge rate for the second year in a row, so I can’t help but think that added ventilation must be beneficial in letting out some of the heat and humidity that gets generated by growing and panting birds inside the gourds. It sure can’t hurt, as long as it doesn’t weaken the gourd, and as long as the vents are covered/plugged in cold weather to keep in as much heat as possible.

Just a few points to consider: My house roof has vinyl soffit (eave) vent panels with slits in them, plus louvered vents at each end to let the attic’s hot air/humidity out and cooler air flow thru; many homes have roof ridge vents, or turbine vents that I see spinning fast in hot weather and sitting still in cold weather; my husband’s race car hauling trailer has a crank-open roof vent—and it feels alot cooler sitting inside it, when that vent is opened. I feel home builders and manufacturers wouldn’t go to the extra expense and effort to install vents in so many of the products we buy, if someone hadn’t researched it somewhere along the way and proven that permitting additional air flow/movement is beneficial. So I will continue to use added ventilation, but just need to decide the number and size.

[rdhd]

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[rdhd]

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[Emil Pampell-Tx]

rdharlin-MO, I just disagree but I have no proof. Where did you get your info? There is not much exchange that needs to happen in a small gourd, there does not need to be a hugh exchange, just a little bit..