Oops, a "non-believer" asked about my PMCA NB trap

[MamaBruff]

Just gotta share this: My Hubby's co worker and his wife dropped in unannounced to visit, and we were walking out on my patio and talking about the Purple Martins... she asked about why the house has to have a winch, and why does it need to go up and down?... "Um, to clean out sparrow nests and check on the Martins and stuff"... "Oh, what is this other birdhouse for? Why is there a red thing blocking the hole?"... "Um, that is a sparrow and starling trap"... (Look of horror) "What do you do with them?"... "Well I exterminate them.. (Look of extreme shock, face goes pale, eyes glaze over) because they harm Purple Martins and all other native birds. They killed my Chickadees, I have seen Bluebirds killed. They are not native, not protected, and are regarded as pests"... REALLY, I am ABSOLUTELY SURE she didn't hear a single word I said after "exterminate them"... Like Charlie Brown's teacher "wa wa-wa waaa"... !!

Guess they won't be visiting again any time soon... Maybe I should have told her I roll them in glitter and fairy dust and release them? OR send them to a scientific study perhaps?

I was pretty much unprepared for this. How to handle a ticklish subject like this? Apparently "just the facts" don't work for some (make that most) folks? Are we as a society so far removed from nature, that we no longer observe or understand it? *sigh*

Mary

[AidanRois]

Oh lordy... I have the same worry. Thankfully, I have another neighbor that hates em as much as we do, and celebrates every catch with us lol. For some, an analogy has worked.. "You kill the mice, rats, and roaches that try to harm, don't you? Same thing, just with wings, and far meaner." For the others, I've pondered making up an info packet containing the law, reasons why we do what we do, and maybe even 'graphics' to hammer the point home. Still figuring on that though.

With the next door houses able to see the trap in our yard and me/husband dispatching, I'm just waiting for the day we get the cops called on us.

[Gobbler T]

Everyone I've told, have that look of shock too. They all say the same thing "I didn't know that! I would have never believed that sweet little bird would do that". My response is allways the same. Yeah, well that sweet little bird, ain't so sweet!

[AvianStewardess]

Got the next generation lined up! Had to explain the purpose of not only the outside "gear" but the pellet rifle,too (out of reach, but not wholly out of sight apparently) to a three year old. She also had mice traps explained when she kicked one out at the barn. And the golf club for snake patrol. Let's see...I think that covers all the "What's that?" and "Why?"related to pests she quizzed me on.

[Matt F.]

Maybe I should have told her I roll them in glitter and fairy dust and release them?

That is AWESOME......

I know what you mean.
I too try to treat folks with kid gloves, when it comes to attempting to explain how house sparrows and starlings are controlled, and dispatched.
Even then, I still probably end up looking like Hannibal Lecter to some....

[Scully]

The biggest single threat to the purple martin today is the lack of new martin housing going up.

The biggest single deterrent to someone new trying for martins is being told the HAVE to kill S&S.

Fortunately, as always, most people putting up houses ain't got the message and most of those that DO put up housing merely put up "a bird house".

Almost ALL purple martins fledged today come from these houses, awful as they are.

Now, here on campus we intensively manage our colony, even weigh and band the young.

I killed two birds this year, a starling and a sparrow, both for test purposes, crushed their skulls with my thumb in a very quick one-handed technique.

Other than that I ain't killed anything in years and we have cranked out fledglings every year while suffering NO sparrows and starlings to nest.

SREH's exclude at least 95% of starlings, even down here. The sparrows we have dealt with by tail clipping. Going on seventy trials now, has worked every time.

Mike Scully

[Matt F.]

The biggest single threat to the purple martin today is the lack of new martin housing going up.

The biggest single deterrent to someone new trying for martins is being told the HAVE to kill S&S.

Well said Mike.
I completely agree.

[KathyF]

The biggest single threat to the purple martin today is the lack of new martin housing going up.

The biggest single deterrent to someone new trying for martins is being told the HAVE to kill S&S.

Hi Mike,
I agree with you on your first assertion, but have to question the second. Is that your opinion, or do you have data to back up the second statement?

I ask (and maybe people are different here in Missouri), because I have had 4 people out of the 60+ that I mentor now that have refused to put up housing because of the HOSP issues. One couple are the banders who band at my site and can't bear to kill birds, but understand the threat and just won't raise them; the second person is (ironically) from the local Audubon club and the third and fourth ladies believe, "let nature take it's course and only the strong survive" and "the Bible says He has his eye on the sparrow" (meaning they won't trap / clip either).

All my other landlords are willing to kill them to protect not only the martins, but the other native species as well.

So, how many chickadee, bluebird, tree swallow nests were destroyed before the HOSP got to your traps in the school colonies?

And you mention that:

Almost ALL purple martins fledged today come from these houses, awful as they are.

I'm assuming you don't do nest checks on all these other sparrow-infested and starling-infested housing. Is that correct? So, do you really know how many martins are being fledged from these sites? Do you know how many martins that were unsuccessful at these sites keep trying there, or move somewhere else? As an example, one of my neighbors has 2 houses up - he used to have around 22 - 24 pair. Thanks to him letting HOSP nest there, he's now down to 4 pair this year.

I agree with you that there has to be an option such as tail-clipping for landlords who do not want to kill, in order to be able to encourage others to put up housing. But I think landlords should be made well aware of what that means and should be presented a list of options and a list of each option's associated risks, to include the broader impact statement that (for example):
a) once you trap and release a clipped HOSP, there is a possibility he will become "trap shy" next year and elude you more easily;
b) the HOSP, until trapped / clipped will wreak havoc on other, earlier cavity-nesting birds which you may have no control over (ie, someone else's nestboxes);
etc.

I have seen more posts this year, both here and on the PMCA FB page about HOSP problems. 1 year does not a study make, but it sure sounds like this has been a bad year for everyone in dealing with HOSP.

[Scully]

Kathy,

So, how many chickadee, bluebird, tree swallow nests were destroyed before the HOSP got to your traps in the school colonies?

Bluebirds are rare breeders here on the fringe of their range, but over all are listed as a "species of least concern" by the International Union for Conservation of Nature and Natural Resources (IUCN) meaning that overall, their population remains stable and they are considered to be in no danger of going extinct, S&S notwithstanding.

Tree swallows do not breed here but the following native cavity nesters do...

Golden-fronted Woodpecker
Ladder-backed Woodpecker
Brown-crested Flycatcher
Great-crested Flycatcher
Purple Martin
Carolina Chickadee

The only one that is not listed as "common" locally is the brown-crested flycatcher. I did however just conclude a survey for the National Park Service, though we are on the northern fringe of their range, brown-crested flycatchers are increasing rapidly here.

In our urban environment, both starlings and sparrows are abundant here, everywhere. Do all the species on the list suffer serious losses? Yes, I'm sure of it. Are they still common and stable locally? Yes, at this writing.

I'm assuming you don't do nest checks on all these other sparrow-infested and starling-infested housing. Is that correct? So, do you really know how many martins are being fledged from these sites?

Nest check 100 sites, on private property? Not possible.

You may recall however I did nest checks on five neglected housing sites for three years, more than 55 cavities at the start, something like 25 pairs of martins.

Yes they did produce young, every year, over those three years, despite the incursions of S&S. IIRC about one less nestling per nest, on average, than our carefully mainitained school colony.

Four of those housing sites are gone now (as many here would recommend, and even the PMCA produced a letter to that effect), so of course they are producing NO martins at all any more.

As for the rest. Hard to believe, but I have been checking neglected housing sites since 2006 (eight years ) ..and yes, as long as they are still standing, many of these sites have hosted martins every year in all that time.

Do they have young? Absolutely, in fact I wait until now to look at these sites PRECISELY because this is when they are feeding young. Presumably those with lost clutches and young have already departed, those WITH young are coming and going frequently, making it possible to assess whether the housing is occupied in just a few minutes.

Very few LARGE young visible this year (I just started counting this weekend), but then even our managed site is losing most young this crazy year).

Do you know how many martins that were unsuccessful at these sites keep trying there, or move somewhere else?

Dunno, but martins have remained common here in the twenty-five years I have been watching birds, sometimes professionally, in this area.

Martins CAN recolonize S&S sites where they were apparently absent the year before.

During my lunch I ran out and checked on this site not 100 yards from the school, this house has to be all of six feet off of the ground. Last occupancy was a single SY pair four years ago, so I wasn't expecting much.

TWO PAIRS of martins in it this year Where several hundred high school kids walk by every day, just across that fence.....







Mike Scully

[MamaBruff]

Ticklish subject, I almost wish I hadn't brought it up.... Please lets put a lid on this can of worms.

As Martineers, we bear a responsibility to care for and protect our native species, using whatever effective, legal means we are comfortable employing. Surely anybody who has witnessed first hand the destruction caused by S&S would realize the need for control of their numbers... by whatever the method.

(I think I will stick with the glitter response next time....)

Peace and Purple Hugs to All,
Mary

[Scully]

One of my favorite local sites, just around the corner from that last pic, right on the street, been producing martins every year since at least 2006 As seen about one hour ago.

[img][img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v148/ ... 241891.jpg[/img][/img]

[Courtney-NC]

Mary, it is an uncomfortable subject, for sure, and some folks are more comfortable doing and discussing one control method vs. another, even though we all have to deal with the long-term consequences of our actions or inactions eventually and hope the outcome is favorable. Personally, I got over it a long time ago, even though I don't have a colony at home (yet), and if folks ask me what that old box is sticking up through my bushes, I tell them it is a S&S trap. Even my kids know what it is and what it is for. I have had to tell folks on 2 occasions now - most folks assume it's just an old birdhouse and since I am already known as the "weird bird lady" in the neighborhood almost no one asks me questions.

Now - I don't know how many more years I can stand to look at that empty martin housing in my yard (nothing else I can do about that!) , but that is another discussion entirely!

[DornCounty]

I know what I've seen and I just don't see how martins, especially in town will standup to the pressure from HOSP over time without help... Even with spring cleanings I have seen 70+ % of cavities filled with sparrow nests in our public colonies. There are probably 20 open martin houses right now in great locations, that are devoid of martins simply due to the HOSP/Starling and no one paying attention. I have also seen private housing filled to the brim with trash, martins could never colonize those houses.

No one walk away from this thread thinking Martins will survive at existing levels if HOSP are left to do their thing. They won't. See the bluebird if you need another good example.

[Scully]

I have also seen private housing filled to the brim with trash, martins could never colonize those houses.

What this really needs is systematic study, rather than anecdotes. I am unaware of anyone in academia who has actually looked at how martins survive in neglected sites, it seems all of the studies (including the latest geolocator stuff) is all at maintained study sites. Even though the majority of the population MUST be coming from neglected sites.

House sparrow nests break down and decompose between martin breeding seasons, I have also observed martins nest on half-finished sparrow nests, and martins reoccuppy housing where they had been absent.

Anyhow, support for your theory in that local martin populations have been declining as long as I have been looking....

... in exact proportion to the net loss of housing, about 5% every year.
Housing occupancy rates over the last seven years had been a consistent 50-60%

In those neglected sites, the NUMBER of martins present, if they are present, averages less than half that of maintained sites. A typical site around here would be two or three pairs of martins in a round-hole twelve room house alongside four or five pairs of sparrows.

Even so, if we still have 200 housing sites left within a four-mile radius of here, 100 of those will be occupied for a total of about 250 pairs.

The other factor around here is the climate. We are going through a dry spell.

Even our maintained colony has only averaged 3.4 fledged young per year since 2002, barely adequate to maintain the population. Subtract one of those nestlings (based upon our prior nest checks of neglected colonies) for all those martins out there in bad housing.

Put another way; if we include this year, the martins in our maintained colony have been unable to raise even three nestlings on average per nest four times in the lest eleven years.

For neglected sites, substracting one nestling from the average, martins in neglected sites have been unable to raise three nestlings an estimated eight times around here in the last eleven years.

When the rains pick up again I dunno.

Mike Scully

[DornCounty]

I understand you Mike and respect your thoughts.. It does merit some study.

[Scully]

Thanks for the kind sentiments, we are on the same side after all

Interesting thing is, according to my own figures, our local martin population should be a whole lot more down in numbers than they actually are. I'm actually surprised that I'm still finding as many as I am.

I will say that in this chaotic weather year I have yet to see ANY large young waiting at the nest entrances of the twenty-odd active neglected sites I have surveyed so far . I'm estimating an average of two fledged young per nesting attempt at our maintained school colony, surely this amounts to very few young fledged at these surrounding sites. Sooner or later something has to give and a local martin population crash seems all but certain

What I would REALLY like to see is a spell of wet years again, in part just to see how this would affect the local martin population in such housing that might remain. It would be pretty cool to see the martin population go UP for once.

IIRC between 2006 and 2008 we located something like 230 martin housing sites within a four-mile radius of campus. I still have 'em all on GPS. I haven't looked at the whole count circle since then. When doing the present late May/early June occupancy survey I stop after looking at the first 100 housing sites I can actually see from the street (often times they are hidden by vegetation), but I would guesstimate of those 230 original sites located, we are probably down to about 150 remaining now.

We're not critical just yet, and martins are still a common bird in the sky around here, but the trend is obvious.

This winter, when the leaves are off of the trees, I need to go around again and determine how many of those housing sites we found are still in place.

Well, I'm off.... to drive slowly and suspiciously through people's neighborhoods, GPS and notebook in hand, peering intently into their back yards

Do you have any idea how improbable it sounds when I explain that I'm driving around looking for purple martins......

Regards,

Mike Scully

[Scully]

Forgot to add, the latest wrinkle here is the gradual return of the Cooper's hawk as a breeding bird. One school colony we are trying to establish suffers regular overflights from a breeding pair of Cooper's and has remained vacant. I also saw one just last week not far from here, probably too late to be "just passing through".

Already it has become apparent this year that perhaps five previously active sites nearest to a large wooded area on Lackland AFB (Medina Base) have all lost their martins. A couple of these sites previously hosted multiple pairs every year.

I can't help but wonder if a Cooper's hawk is responsible.

Mike Scully

[Guest]

I'm a new wanna be landlord this year and certainly don't have the experience of the rest of you. My thoughts at the beginning of the season were that HOSP could not possibly be that bad. I was right; they are WORSE! I successfully relocated BB's from my Martin house to a BB house. They laid 5 eggs and I was soooo excited.

Then I came home from work one day to find a HOSP sitting on top of their box. I watched him look around to make sure nobody was looking and then enter the box. I started yelling and ran him off. When he came back a few minutes later, I shot him. An inspection revealed my box was empty and there were 5 pecked eggs on the ground. He didn't do this for a place to live. He did this for pure meanness! I'm a believer now and will diligently control HOSP from this point forward.

[MamaBruff]

MikeH,
Glad you figured that out right away. It could have been much worse. I lost a whole batch of 6 Chickadee Babies and Mama in much the same scenario. Now beat yourself up and think of how this could have possibly been prevented. (not my words, but loosely quoting Mr Hill)... There are things to do. Ridding yourself of the perp is one. (there will be an endless parade of successors to this role you know) Another is adding a "sparrow spooker" after Mama lays 2nd egg. Also check access to the house to be sure a raccoon can't get it open (happened to me, lost all BB babies) and alter accordingly. Better yet, mount the BB house on a pole and add a stovepipe predator guard. Consider snake netting. If you are going to provide housing, you have a responsibility to see that it is safe and sturdy. I learned the hard way. It hurts. Good Luck.
Mary

[DebA]

Well I for one find that woman's reaction to you...funny. Around these parts I was the abnormal for not wanting to hunt, shoot, hurt any creature. So in our circle I don't get the astonishment. Now...I am a HOSP shooting fool. Even so this year I lost a nest of four eggs to a pair that built their nest right over the PM's. Grrr. That particular male house sparrow is no longer a problem. However, they do keep on coming. I will keep trying to protect my martins. Afterall I didn't purchase and put up new housing for a damn house sparrow.

That's my way. I respect you Mr. Scully. I feel you are doing things the right way for you and your circumstances.

Deb