Prospective landlords- what do you say?

[C.C.Martins]

Off season question for the group.
What do you tell someone who is wavering on attracting martins, perhaps they want to try and looking for advice?
At our satelite site iv been afforded the opportunity to talk martins quite a bit. Iv had 3 or 4 folks ask if they should put up a house, I always say sure but be ready to kill all the sparrows and starlings. I discuss it a bit more, talk the martins up, compare the two species and why sparrows and starlings are so dangerous but I sense the reluctance immediately.
Might have lost them at that point. I have yet to run into someone who says, "sure I can thump a few sparrows, no problem, when do I start?"
I sort of feel that promoting the birds rightly comes with a caution or two (predators, dead birds, good and bad seasons), but at what point do we want to grow them vs chase them off. I remember a few years ago someone here had snake problems yet wouldn't protect against them so my reply was to take the house down, let the martins move on and do them a favor.

Reason I'm asking , what is the right approach? Lots and lots of martins are born in less than perfect homes, and landlords have to start somewhere. When they wait, and finally get martins hopefully the birds land in fertile grounds, the landlord may be emotionally invested after all the effort, and time, to really embrace all the good and bad in "keeping" the birds.

I'm fairly rabid about house sparrows and don't keep my feelings about how dangerous they are to myself. But not everyone ownes a pellet gun, not everyone wants to shoot or trap. Does that make them a bad landlord? Maybe. Maybe not.

Kind of torn; hate, really hate, seeing sparrows in a martin house...sparrows are not to be trusted or tolerated yet if the prospective landlords never try, then they will never, ever have a colony and the birds lose. But they seem to lose when sparrows have taken a foot hold.

How do you approach it? Just so you all know I'm still rabid about getting those sparrows and will continue to suggest that here....but the difference seems that the folks here looking for advice have made up their minds.

Tom

[defed]

i never bring it up. even if someone has a perfect site. most ppl aren't really interested in properly 'managing' a colony. they'd put the house up and that would be it. they'd see s/s using it and be satisfied that some birds were there. you're right, it is sort of a dilemma....is it better to have unmanaged housing that may produce some martin fledges or is the risk too high that they will just be s/s slums?

if someone asked me, i'd tell them as you do, about the problems w/ s/s, actively managing, etc.

[C.C.Martins]

Maybe go soft on the killing of sparrows. Say nest pulls is an option, then shooting and trapping last resort.

My one and only group talk about martins had a lady who really wanted martins, but was worried about sparrows. I said she'd have to kill them, they cannot co exist. Dont think she ever put the house up. Probably just as well, her neighbor had a managed colony who would not appriciate a house full of sparrows near by.

Thanks

[G Saner]

Tom,

Good post. Here is my approach. First, I would like to know about their site. Ideally, I visit in person but at least look at a satellite map. Then I give them a percentage of my guess if they will attract martins. That is the first purge. If I don't think they will be successful, I don't want them erecting a sparrow ghetto. That takes out the first wave of people that won't be a good landlord.

Second, I discuss the price. Sometimes one spouse is interested and the other not. When they hear the equipment cost, that eliminates some more people that won't be good landlords. If they are still interested, I explain that my gourds are all 20 years old, and you need to divide the initial cost by at least 25 years as that is how long they will last. I first suggest a 12-gourd pole, then a 6-gourd pole if that is too expensive and finally a Trio Grandpa.

If they are still with me, I bring up sparrows and starlings. Like you say, not many are on board to kill them. Some of my mentees initially said they couldn't harm a bug but when a sparrow starts pecks "their" martins' eggs, they contact me about traps or pellet guns.

My area has no shortage of people wanting to be good landlords. Until this summer, I would say the martin population was increasing and many good small colonies are here with good landlords. However, we could always use more.

[C.C.Martins]

Sir, that is perfect and what iv been missing. Its easy to talk martins under a martin pole, just have to present some facts and look to see if they can in fact host them.
That is solid, much appriciated!
My sister in law has a similar approach...she is a body builder and has folks asking to go to the gym with her to loose weight. She takes them and wipes them out the first day, if they come back she works with them.
Yes, this has been a brutal summer, one to forget. Glad its almost over.
Thanks alot, feel much better now.
Tom

[amethyst.aviators]

Hi Tom,
As someone who had no martin knowledge, experience and then was overwhelmed in a state of disaster management at this colony on the property I purchased, I'd like to chime in and say: to be unclear is to be unkind. I would not refrain from explaining the sparrow and starling issues. If a potential landlord views the info as a deal breaker, then OK. If the potential landlord chooses to dismiss the sparrow and starling threat and put out housing, then they made an informed decision.
The worst thing for me was feeling helpless when I put it all together this summer that proper martin colonies have gourds that lower and these gourds have these access caps on them, and oh your pole needs a predator guard. When I read about predator guard on poles and saw the PMCA online store has like 3 week shipping time etc... I went to Lowes, purchased netting, and immediately put it on the poles. Got 4 snakes in 7 days. I was stunned!
Disaster management is a terrible place to be. So I would suggest to not withhold information simply because you might cause some to lose interest. I think I would emphasize how martins are reliant on human provided housing and their "housing crisis" comes partly from sparrows and starlings. Perhaps you already share that. If you want to lure them in (ha ha) let them see a martin baby.

[C.C.Martins]

Hi Tom,
As someone who had no martin knowledge, experience and then was overwhelmed in a state of disaster management at this colony on the property I purchased, I'd like to chime in and say: to be unclear is to be unkind. I would not refrain from explaining the sparrow and starling issues. If a potential landlord views the info as a deal breaker, then OK. If the potential landlord chooses to dismiss the sparrow and starling threat and put out housing, then they made an informed decision.
The worst thing for me was feeling helpless when I put it all together this summer that proper martin colonies have gourds that lower and these gourds have these access caps on them, and oh your pole needs a predator guard. When I read about predator guard on poles and saw the PMCA online store has like 3 week shipping time etc... I went to Lowes, purchased netting, and immediately put it on the poles. Got 4 snakes in 7 days. I was stunned!
Disaster management is a terrible place to be. So I would suggest to not withhold information simply because you might cause some to lose interest. I think I would emphasize how martins are reliant on human provided housing and their "housing crisis" comes partly from sparrows and starlings. Perhaps you already share that. If you want to lure them in (ha ha) let them see a martin baby.

Sounds like you went through a trial by fire, it sure can be overwhelming while trying to learn with an established colony but chip at the iceberg. I believe you are still experiencing the up hill climb. The rewards are good for the soul.
It is alot, there's a science to protecting these birds and ensuring their continued success. Glad you got those snakes, it is amazing! Whats frightening is thinking about what the birds go through nightly in an unprotected house. You tackled one major problem.
Oh yes, when they express intrest, I share the dangers of snakes, sparrows and starlings, I point out the trio grand pa full of spare o doors 20 feet from the gourds. Ill adjust my technique to that of Mr Saner.
I like that: to be unclear is to be unkind. Applies to lots of things in life.
Wish you all the best, thanks for the reply.
Tom

[Bird Brain]

Even the PMCA website doesn't actively promote slaughtering the local House Sparrow population. They let the forum participants reveal those details to potential newbies instead. People are fine with poisoning fire ants, roaches, rats, and termites, but cringe at killing house sparrows. It's the same thing. It is what must be done. Revealing it immediately is the best way to screen out the unworthies.

[C.C.Martins]

Yep, the sparrows are so dangerous. Yet they run under the radar. Unless you are faced with the havoc they bring to blue birds, martins, barn swallows, list goes on.
I think most folks consider them pests, they are predators. Therefore a good trap (or a bunch), and a zeroed in pellet gun is a good predator guard.
Tom

[Martintown33]

Hi Tom. Good post. I’m kind of like you. People ask me about starting a colony. First I tell them all the good points that we all know and love about martins. Then I tell them, but the enjoyment they bring comes with some work. I tell them , martins need human interaction and assistance. Sparrows and starling control methods, nest and mite checks and protection, predator guards, etc… some people then seem discouraged by the work required, but I tell them it’s well worth it. But I say, “ you can’t just put up a house, leave it, and expect great success. It is a dilemma. I don’t want to discourage them , but martins do need help from their landlords …
Rob

[C.C.Martins]

Hey Rob,
Just tried the technique on our bird vet, he said he had a house up and martin visitor's but the sparrows and a tree took over. I almost immediately reverted to kill the things, but said martins are wonderful to have and like you say told him some work is involved. Suggested he move the house to the most open area. He was pulling nests but you know how that goes. I did mention the only sure fire way to rid them is terminal, he said yep your right.
He has my number, if he calls well and good.

[Martintown33]

Agree Tom.. the ones that don’t want to kill sparrows, usually end up wanting to, after they catch the purple fever, and realize that HOSPS are deadly little sneaks! Example: my sister set up blue bird houses last spring. I told her she will have to trap and kill or shoot the sparrows because they will kill your bluebird babies. She didn’t think it was necessary… until… she saw a male HOSP enter one of her houses, and come out with a newborn baby in his beak. Needless to say, she got instant HOSP rage. She asked me what type pellet gun to get and asked me to teach her how to use it. Now she calls them “ the little demons” and shoots all she sees!
Rob

[C.C.Martins]

Good for her and her blue birds. Im glad she asked you about the kind of pellet gun, she will end up doing very well! I can't walk into a Walmart without gravitating to red fire pellets.

[Dave Duit]

I let them know that the martins travel thousands of miles from Brazil just to stay at my nice comfy housing. Next I mention that they have only one clutch and one chance to raise their young. Then, I mention that a nasty sparrow will come along and peck holes in the martins eggs, kill the parents, spread disease and build their nest right on top of where the baby martins would and should have been. I also mention that a sparrows life usually last no more than a year and a half, while the martins live around 7-11 years. Stress how the martins rely on you as their protector to help raise their family. A sparrow will make a nest darn near any place. But, they happen to choose your martins to kill maim and destroy a beneficial bird that you try to protect. Try to paint the sparrow as vial as possible. I know we know how bad sparrows are in the forum, but the general public is clueless as to their destruction. It is easier for a landlord to kill a sparrow once they see the true nature of sparrows and starlings.

[C.C.Martins]

Yep, good technique! Thanks Dave.

[MJM]

I'm a martiner now, but had you told me when they randomly showed up at my house that I would be killing other birds so that martins could nest there- you'd have lost me right then. I do not just "kill" things, most especially when I don't understand that the things you are killing is to save something native. When I understand it, I understand why and that changes perception.

Honestly, I see you post all the time and you are a super nice guy and clearly wanting to help- but you telling people who are asking the first, most entry-level questions / interest that they have to go kill other birds- you probably look pretty creepy.

That's kind of like showing a first-time home buyer a house and telling them well... you have bills, and you have maintenance, and you have all sorts of problems that you as homeowners are woefully unprepared for; good luck!

[C.C.Martins]

I'm a martiner now, but had you told me when they randomly showed up at my house that I would be killing other birds so that martins could nest there- you'd have lost me right then. I do not just "kill" things, most especially when I don't understand that the things you are killing is to save something native. When I understand it, I understand why and that changes perception.

Honestly, I see you post all the time and you are a super nice guy and clearly wanting to help- but you telling people who are asking the first, most entry-level questions / interest that they have to go kill other birds- you probably look pretty creepy.

That's kind of like showing a first-time home buyer a house and telling them well... you have bills, and you have maintenance, and you have all sorts of problems that you as homeowners are woefully unprepared for; good luck!

Yep, everything you said is right....and dove tails nicely with Mr. Saners approach. The folks he dealt with are at the point they understand the why, first hand.
Yeah, Iv tried softening it...told them how hard it is to attract martins, they (mostly) get one shot at a clutch, while a sparrow will have 3 clutches of 6 and they can out compete them. I suppose I can come off like that out there, I can be straight faced...maybe its me! Haha.
Yet wise words spoken earlier....to be unclear is to be unkind.
Guess all we can do is try and not force it.
Yes, years ago id not have shot sparrows....but like tending a nice garden, have to pull weeds I suppose.
All the best off season!
Oh, we have our green grass back....not as green as up there of course but 10+ inches of rain in a month!
Tom

[MJM]

Yep, there is a fine line of enough information... and not enough! Sadly in the "sales" portion of getting people involved it really needs to be all rainbows and butterflies. The evil sparrows will rear their heads a little later in the story.