BUILDING MATERIALS

[Guest]

I HAVE 1 HOUSE I'M GONNA HAVE TO REFLOOR FOR NEXT YEAR. IF I USE TREATED PLYWOOD WILL IT PUT OFF ANYTHING THE P.M.'S WON'T LIKE.
MARK HARPER

[Emil Pampell-Tx]

The old treated lumber (treated with CCA, the A was for Arsenic) was discouraged, and many people would not use it for birdhouses. Before I knew that, I used it for many years with great success, the martins simply loved it. I don't think it hurt them in any way. I did quit using it.

The new treated lumber that is available uses some other chemical (a form of copper), and I don't know much about it, but it is supposed to be safer for humans, so I think it probably would be safer for birds, but I don't know for sure. Most of the new treated lumber uses copper in various ways to treat the lumber. The copper should be safer.

[Laverne]

http://www.purplemartin.org/forumarchiv ... avings.htm

This link is to an informative posting from Louise Chambers @ PMCA. I had never read this post before today. It deals primarily with the use of cedar shavings as a base nest material - however, it does make the one comment that shavings from treated lumber should not be used because it is toxic to birds.

The other important bit of information I derived from Louise's post involved the use of Sevin. I know we have all been around and around regarding the use of Sevin inside the Purple Martin nest cavity. I know everybody using Sevin is reporting no ill effects in their nestlings. What we don't know and can't see is what is happening inside the nestlings that will affect their lives over the long term.

This season I have been promoting the use of Sevin in the nest. I would like to take this opportunity to retract my promotion of Sevin and again voice my preference for nest changes and the use of cedar shavings.

I just hate the idea that we are exposing our nestlings to a pesticide that is capable of causing reproduction problems in their lives as adults.

[Guest]

EMIL & LAVERNE, THANKS FOR THE INFO.
MARK HARPER

[oneidalaker]

Laverne, I recently puchased and read Stokes book on Purple Martins. In there Stokes states and cedar shavings should not be used as they are toxic to the birds. If this is true and if the PMCA (Vol. 14-1) is correct about diatomaceous earth and sevin, I believe that all's thats left is sulphur for parasite control (and there most likely is some reseach somewhere that indicates that sulphur is bad also).

Perhaps the solution is to use moderation with whatever means listed above is used and to do nest replacements every 10 days or so to remove the bulk of whatever parasites that may be there. Best to find some kind of balance, keep the parasites under control for the martins short term health without poisoning them over the long term

This certainly sounds like an area where more research is needed.

[Emil Pampell-Tx]

oneidalake, I agree with you that moderation is the key to everything, and if you do nest changes every 10 days, that will help control them somewhat. I have found though that with natural gourds or wood, that it is more difficult to control mites, so I add just a tiny amount, about 1/4 teaspoon ful of sevin under the nesting material. Most people overdo it with chemicals, they simply use much too large an amount.

You are right, sulphur will damage the skin of tender hands, and especially tender skin on baby martins. Please do not use sulphur. Also, it is no longer recommended to use diatomaceous earth. That leaves alcohol or possibly sevin. I use very small amounts of sevin, and recent surveys on other sites finds that about 86% of martin owners do use small amounts of sevin. I would rather use some sevin under the nesting material (where the martins cannot touch it) than to see the martins suffer.

[Laverne]

Hello, oneidalaker.

I have not read the Stokes book on Purple Martins. I know that it was written a long time ago and some of their suggestions are out of date. Maybe their book is where all the arguments come from regarding cedar. I know that Purple Martins used to nest in woodpecker cavities and many of these cavities were in old cedar trees. I also know that the aromatics in cedar fade in just a short time. I know that I have been using cedar shavings for five years and the PMCA and sites they monitor for much longer than that. I have never found a nestling with any type of respiratory problem. I don't have a lot of unexplained deaths among my PM nestlings... and without at least one nest change, I could still end up with an infestation of mites. I know that nest changes are impractical for landlords of large colonies. I know that Sevin will continue to be used. I can only hope that landlords will be careful with the use of Sevin and follow the explicit directions of seasoned landlords who have used it with known success.

How many times have you read a post regarding unhatched eggs? This season I saw several posts regarding nestlings who were blind in one eye. Do you remember the bald eagle crisis? How do you suppose these things happen? Do you think it is normal? Do you think we should just expect to have a certain amount of failed nests? I don't. I think every Purple Martin pair healthy enough to complete migration should be healthy enough to raise a big strapping brood of nestlings.

I will continue to bring this topic up whenever I feel it needs to be discussed again. I want to make sure every single Purple Martin landlord out there is fully educated on the shortcomings of pesticides in the nest cavity. I want to make sure every landlord understands the options and that every landlord is "extremely" careful when the need arises for an infestation of mites to be eliminated. I would like to see every landlord making an educated decision with regard to the use of pesticides in the nest cavity... and the flower bed, and the vegetable garden, and the lawn...

By the way, sulphur is a big no-no. As Emil said, it will burn "my" sensitive skin. Just imagine what it will do to a newly hatched, pink and naked, Purple Martin nestling?

[Guest]

How many times have you read a post regarding unhatched eggs? This season I saw several posts regarding nestlings who were blind in one eye. Do you remember the bald eagle crisis? How do you suppose these things happen? Do you think it is normal? Do you think we should just expect to have a certain amount of failed nests? I don't. I think every Purple Martin pair healthy enough to complete migration should be healthy enough to raise a big strapping brood of nestlings.

I will continue to bring this topic up whenever I feel it needs to be discussed again. I want to make sure every single Purple Martin landlord out there is fully educated on the shortcomings of pesticides in the nest cavity. I want to make sure every landlord understands the options and that every landlord is "extremely" careful when the need arises for an infestation of mites to be eliminated. I would like to see every landlord making an educated decision with regard to the use of pesticides in the nest cavity... and the flower bed, and the vegetable garden, and the lawn...

Laverne,

I think it is a good thing to bring up the points you mention in the second paragraph quoted above. Making a knowledgable choice is important.

Not so sure about the points you bring up in the first paragraph quoted above. None of the problems you listed above have been proven to be caused by Sevin. Many of the problems you listed above may have been caused by cold.......and several areas reported having significant cold snaps (referring to failed nests and unhatched eggs). It's easy to group "chemicals" all in the same catagory and insinuate that they are all bad. A lot of good has been brought about by chemicals.

I do believe there has always been a "certain amount of failed nests".......even before the first man-made housing. I think many nest failures have nothing to do with the health of the bird. Inexperience, predators, weather, and accidents all are factors even with healthy pairs.

One thing is a certain risk.......having nest mites and taking no action. I think we can agree on that even if we decide on different methods for handling it. One thing I am certain of Laverne.......that you love your Martins and wants the best for them!

[Laverne]

Thank you, HogWild.

Yeah, I just love those Purple Birdies...

You are correct that none of the problems I mention are "proven" to be caused by Sevin. I don't want anybody to do the tests that are required to "prove" or "disprove" something. (They have to autopsy the birds and I surely don't want that!)

I guess all I'm really trying to say is, "Pay attention to your colony and your nestcheck records. Do your own little study of your own little colony. Be careful with pesticides in the nest and don't overuse them, because we "don't know" - it hasn't been "proven" that we are doing no harm. I hear it said over and over, "I've been using Sevin for years and have never had a problem". When a new landlord reads that, they take it at face value. I'm trying to point out that the problem could be hidden deep inside our Purple Martins, in their organs, where we "can't see". In other words, Sevin doesn't kill PMs - but, it could be silently affecting them in other ways.

It "was proven" that DDT caused the eggshells of certain birds to be so weak that the birds could not reproduce. Now, who would have ever guessed that a pesticide used way over yonder on that farm would end up concentrated in the body of this bird and cause this problem?

For thousands of years, up to the last few decades, nobody did nest checks and nobody did nest changes and nobody used pesticides in the nest cavity. We are in the infancy of active landlord participation. Am I wrong about that? I am a firm believer in active participation as a landlord. I know that we are helping our colonies produce more young than ever before. The health of the young is very important. It is "proven" that mites are life threatening to nestlings. Let's just be "very" careful.

This is my solution: I am going to maintain a colony that I can actively manage. That means I am going to limit the size of my colony to 48 gourds. My overflow of Purple Martins will be out there looking for new sites to colonize. I am going to do the nest changes that are recommended by the PMCA (one at 10 days of age and one at 20 days of age). I am going to continue to use cedar shavings under pine needles as a base nest and I am going to deal with mite infestations when they show up. I have several spare gourds that are ready and waiting to accept a nest full of martin nestlings whenever the mites attack. This way I can control the mites and still keep my colony pesticide free.

[Emil Pampell-Tx]

There is nothing that is more powerful than fear! Fear of chemicals is one of the prevailing fears. When not an ounce of evidence can be shown, then the fear of chemicals is the first one that is brought up.

Most of the meat that is eaten today is produced by crops that use chemicals, or actually adding chemicals to the animals or poultry feed, or using it in other manners. Poultry houses use 80% sevin, and martin people usually use 5% sevin. The USDA has tested thousands of chickens and have never found any indication of sevin in the meat or other body parts. Many people have tried to prove that this is dangerous, but the efforts are useless to this time. Chemicals may not be perfect, but they have their place in our society, and who wants to go back to the times when people were considered old at 45 to 50, and 65 years old was unusual. If a fault is found with a chemical, I will be the first in line to oppose it. We must continue our rigid testing of chemicals.

I support the responsible use of chemicals, including sevin, until someone can produce some evidence, even a tiny bit, that it is harmful. I love my martins too much to make them suffer with mite bites, while I am changing the nesting material, then putting the babies back into the clean nest, when the babies are still full of mites. That sounds heartless to me. I am forced to use sevin because of these reasons

[Laverne]

I don't attribute human longevity to the use of chemicals...

I "do" attribute human longevity to knowledge and the application of knowledge...

[Emil Pampell-Tx]

Laverne, are you also opposed to all the medicines, pills, shots, soaps, cleaning agents, disinfectants, mosquito repellents & sprays, paints, flooring, carpets, insulations, etc? Most of them are made from chemicals. In fact, if you want to get technical, everything is made from chemicals in some manner. I really do think that we desperately need these chemicals, and they help improve our lives, just as sevin improves the lives of baby martins.

[Laverne]

well, yeah...

When I read the label on my ice cream, I don't want it to read like a can of "bug spray" - as my Momma always said.

Let's just say it... I am a tree hugging, nature loving, environmentalist or at least I wannabe.

I'm not trying to fight with you, Emil. I have always liked you. I admire the contributions you make here on the Forum. It is very obvious that you care a great deal about your martins, and you send forth many fledglings every season. Great job!

You and I have a difference of opinion when it comes to "chemicals". Every time the subject comes up, there is head-butting. However, I think the subject is important enough to risk an argument. The new landlords logging in to this Forum everyday need to know that they have a choice. They need to know that mites are a serious threat and an everyday problem for landlords. They need to hear both sides of the story.

Seems I recall this post began with "Building Materials". The EPA has banned the use of treated lumber in playground equipment. They have changed the way they "treat" treated lumber, because it was found to cause problems in humans. I don't want to expose my PM nestlings to anything that I wouldn't expose my human grandchildren to. Is that the "wrong" approach to take to life?

Dear Mark Harper. Please do not use treated lumber in the nest cavity of your Purple Martin housing. Thank you...

[Guest]

LAVERNE,
I WON'T USE TREATED LUMBER AT ALL NOW, ON P.M. HOUSES.
I MAY HAVE TO TRY 7 IN MODERATION BECAUSE I AM NOT HOME ENOUGH TO DO NEST CHANGES. WOULD THAT NOT BE A GOOD TRADE OFF FOR SOMEONE LIKE ME THAT CAN'T CHECK EVERY DAY.
MARK HARPER

[Laverne]

Yes, Mark - I do believe this would be a good trade off.

Just be sure to apply it the way Emil says: 1/4 teaspoon of 5% Sevin sprinkled beneath the nest. That is probably the safest and most effective way to apply it.

Best wishes to you for many successful seasons.